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Sivar
08-22-2014, 09:07 PM
The Ascend Acoustics website is terrible, and considering that Ascend appears to be a direct web-sales company, that's like selling speakers out of the back of a beaten up 1970's van.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but to make this known so that it can be fixed. The website is the equivalent of a store-front for a direct sales company, so it seems that some effort should go into making it good.

I'm in this forum because I've long planned my speaker system. My list has included the Axiom 80-800 system for some time, but extensive research on AVSForums and others has suggested that Axiom may not be the best value for speakers in that price range.

Ascend, Aperion, and Chane (Arx) have been consistently recommended, so I am looking into all of those. I really like the Sierra Tower -- the bamboo looks beautiful, and if it really dampens vibration as well as MDF, its use is brilliant. Still, I am a professional software engineer and feel really uncomfortable ordering from a web company with a website in the state this one is in (The forums are 3rd party and are fine).

Again, I'm not trying to "troll" and don't want a bunch of defensive posts by Ascend customers. I genuinely believe that it is so bad it is affecting the business.

astr0b0y
08-23-2014, 05:13 AM
Well, its your opinion so fair enough. I don't find it as bad as you say but it would rank in my top list of good looking sites. As for affecting business? Given that Dave is barely able to keep up with orders I don't think you're right.

Zetta Matrix
08-23-2014, 01:15 PM
I am a happy Ascend customer (understatement) and I don't agree, but I see where you're coming from. I also am a technologist so I understand some of the origins of this feeling. I will try to make this post minimally defensive. :)

Dave makes speakers and sells them direct. Having visited Ascend's offices, I think that he runs a very lean operation. The humble, almost ascetic vibe you see is saving Dave's customers money. This is what Dave wants - the best speakers you can get for the most reasonable and customer-respecting price he can manage.

However, your point about scaring customers off suggests that maybe Dave could generate a higher volume demand and make his prices even more competitive and/or grow his business/profits, if only his website was state-of-the-art. Only he can say to what extent he agrees with that line of thinking.

In my mind, it's not necessarily worth his time and money to make his site as slick and safe as Amazon. And what part of it is scariest -- the aesthetics of the product presentation, the safety of an online transaction, or perhaps both? Would you feel better if you paid via PayPal, or bought the item through Amazon even if it was fulfilled directly through Ascend as a seller? I'm genuinely curious what you consider the most important aspect of the website is and what you would prefer to see. You didn't quite give enough detail for anyone to know what you wish it looked/acted like.

Finally, from reading the forum, it seems that a lot of us (myself included) do our transactions with Dina over the phone anyway. It feels really nice to get that level of customer support. If it was impossible to purchase them over the internet with a few clicks, I wouldn't mind.

best--
Curtis D.

timmbw
08-23-2014, 02:08 PM
I bought my speakers based on their function and quality… not the look of their website.:)

Sivar
08-23-2014, 07:24 PM
In my mind, it's not necessarily worth his time and money to make his site as slick and safe as Amazon. And what part of it is scariest -- the aesthetics of the product presentation, the safety of an online transaction, or perhaps both? Would you feel better if you paid via PayPal, or bought the item through Amazon even if it was fulfilled directly through Ascend as a seller? I'm genuinely curious what you consider the most important aspect of the website is and what you would prefer to see. You didn't quite give enough detail for anyone to know what you wish it looked/acted like.

I appreciate not being "attacked", despite writing a post that may rub some the wrong way.

I will answer your question with a scenario: Pretend that you have been reading about different speaker systems, have learned the value proposition of DS and visit some manufacturer websites: XTZ.com, axiomaudio.com, aperion.com. Then you visit ascendacoustics.com based on surprisingly consistent recommendations. Impressions:

"This site looks like it's from the late 90's. Is it safe to give these guys my credit card? Sure they are probably a trustworthy company (based on glowing reviews), but do they know what they are doing with credit card security? [As an aside, does Ascend know to use one-way encryption (hashes) for passwords or do they just store password in plain text?]

"Oh well, I want to price a system with that Sierra Tower I've heard about, or maybe something smaller. Let's see... ``System Advisor``! That's what I need! [uses system advisor] What the heck? This tool doesn't even mention the Sierra Tower [see #1], and it doesn't show pictures or specs or anything! This can't be right.

1080


Oh, wait, there's another link for ``System Advisor`` [see #2]. Maybe that one works.

1081



A 404? Are you kidding me? On a WEB-based company's website!?

Okay, one last shot. Maybe this is some old version of the website found by Google. I'll go to the forum and ask:


1082


What? is this forum to learn about Ascend, or only for those that already know about their stuff?

-------------------------------

After this experience, would you spend thousands of dollars on speakers through this company?

Sivar
08-23-2014, 07:35 PM
what part of it is scariest -- the aesthetics of the product presentation, the safety of an online transaction, or perhaps both? Would you feel better if you paid via PayPal, or bought the item through Amazon even if it was fulfilled directly through Ascend as a seller? I'm genuinely curious what you consider the most important aspect of the website is and what you would prefer to see. You didn't quite give enough detail for anyone to know what you wish it looked/acted like.

I didn't answer some of this.

What part is most important? Feeling like if I enter my personal info, it won't be easily hacked due to incompetent security (which is very common ... take a look at intheswim.com, a site where I asked my account be deleted because they store passwords without any protection at all).

Would I feel better buying with Paypal? Yes -- they may be a pain in the ass but I know they are safe.
Through Amazon? I personally rarely buy through 3rd party vendors on Amazon, but that's an idea. Perhaps a few % extra can be charged through Amazon to make up for the extra costs to Ascend.

I agree that it's not worth it for a small business to make a website like Amazon, but I am surprised to find any disagreement that it isn't worth it for a small web-based business to have a decent website. It is, after all, a WEB-based company, that competes against others that have much better websites. Would you spend thousands at a brick'n'mortar store with a poorly maintained building that had peeling paint, leaks in the roof, stains on the carpet, and didn't appear to have any clerk except maybe in the back room?

You'd probably assume that they were about to go out of business, and that you'd be on your own with anything you bought there!


As a customer looking for speakers, the website is my first and only impression when no local speaker shop is available to peruse.
If you can forget for a moment all you know about Ascend and imagine that you are a first-time buyer, visit aperionaudio.com (my other top contender) and then ascendacoustics.com. Which gives you the better impression?

curtis
08-23-2014, 07:53 PM
For what it's worth, Dave has posted that a website redesign is in the works.

If I were to do business with a company, the website is surely something that I would see first, but I would do a lot of due diligence before I made any decision...I always do. How a website looks is and would not be a priority for me in making my decision.

Aperion spends A LOT more on marketing than Ascend does, website appearance is very important to them (ie. marketing). Their business model is entirely different. Selling internet direct is the only thing they have in common with Ascend.

For instance, Aperion lists "Sensitivity" for one of their products as 87db....and that's it. An educated consumer would immediately wonder "is that anechoic?" An un-educated consumer just looking at numbers would not know the difference. In an objective measurement in a review, that anechoic measurement is actually 84.5db. That 87db is, IMO, misleading. I can probably forgive a 1db difference...but 2.5 is a fair amount. That is marketing.

I have a fair amount of experience with Aperion, but IMO, dollar for dollar, there are better values in the ID space.

Good honest information is what I would be more interested in.

davef
08-23-2014, 11:25 PM
Sivar,

I appreciate your opinion. If our website causes you that much concern or distress, it is OK to take your business elsewhere. Please know that while we receive plenty of feedback regarding our website, the majority of it is actually quite positive. Many appreciate that old school approach, and that is precisely our way of doing business. When you call us, you actually get a friendly and knowledgeable person on the phone, in addition, I also make myself quite accessible to everyone. Imagine that, no voice mail menus to navigate, friendly honest real people who are happy to talk to you, real customer service. And of course (ask anyone who owns our products) an extremely high quality product at an honest price.

While this business approach might be a bit unusual compared to how most businesses operate these days and what consumers *expect* to see, I think you would be a bit shocked at how many happy customers we have and how many speakers we actually sell... Ask anyone who has visited us, we are assembling and testing speakers all day long. We are, after all, an actual loudspeaker factory, with onsite engineering facilities and an 8-10 hour per day functional production line. You will not find this at any of the other *loudspeaker* companies you mentioned.

We are not driven by marketing (have you ever seen an Ascend advertisement anywhere - yet somehow you ended up here, bad website and all - really think about that for a moment ;) ) We are not driven by the mighty dollar and maximizing profits.

While this might sound corny to you, we are fully driven by a true passion for audio, of which is backed up by real R&D and engineering. We have been around for quite a while now, and we have grown year after year after year -- and while most of our competitors # 1 expense is marketing, our # 1 expense is R&D combined with putting our profits back into our products.

Our website is and always has been fully secured. We are PCI compliant and our site is tested once per month. In many tens of thousands of credit card transactions, we have never had a single data breach. In fact, the only time we have ever been hacked was with our 3rd party forum software (vBulletin) – which, BTW, is hosted on a separate server to keep our main site more secure.
The broken link you posted was simply an error leftover from an update a few weeks ago (our bad) and should be fixed by early morning (thanks for catching that)

As others have mentioned, a website overhaul is actually in-process, but I had to put it on-hold because what I wanted for the site did not mesh at all with what our web designer had in mind (typical joomla or wordpress template driven marketing site – those are easy) and thus demanded too much of my time, during a time when our priority was manufacturing and getting Sierra-2 into customers hands.

In addition, and I feel I should share this with you – when customers have mentioned that we have all the business we can handle, this is quite true. When I started Ascend I never imagined we would be selling this many speakers. We reached a point last year which forced me to double our staff and add a second warehouse. I didn’t like it – I started spending less hands-on time with our products and more time managing people. That was not for me, and never what I had in mind for myself and Ascend. Keep in mind that every single loudspeaker that we ship is fully tested by me…. From HTM-200’s to Sierra Towers, yet another aspect that makes us quite unique.

In summary, until our website overhaul is finished, be that in a few months or several years – if our current website actually scares you away from our products, it is OK. I am quite sure that other companies that are really more about marketing than an actual loudspeaker company will be quite happy that you didn’t choose us, and those Ascend customers who understand what we are about might get their speakers a bit sooner ;) Unfortunately, you would be missing out on products that sell without the need for marketing and without the need for a fancy website. I think that is something that requires a lot of contemplation.

davef
08-24-2014, 12:01 AM
Okay, one last shot. Maybe this is some old version of the website found by Google. I'll go to the forum and ask:


1082


What? is this forum to learn about Ascend, or only for those that already know about their stuff?

-------------------------------

After this experience, would you spend thousands of dollars on speakers through this company?

What is your issue with the forum? The security question asked is "what are the 3 numeric characters of our CBM loudspeaker model" You entered 340, which is not correct. It is extremely difficult to keep spammers out of the forum and this is the method we have chosen which has proven to work well. And yes, this forum is for our customers and for those who want to learn about Ascend, and as such, it is fully necessary to keep spammers out.

Sivar
08-24-2014, 08:19 AM
I appreciate the reply, David, and I am glad to know the website is properly secured.
Note that I posted not to complain, but to share that I thought some customers may be driven away as I nearly was. Clearly I was not because I took the time to bitch and moan about something that doesn't affect me. :)
If you recently finished a major business expansion then apparently this is not a huge problem.


While this might sound corny to you, we are fully driven by a true passion for audio, of which is backed up by real R&D and engineering.
This doesn't sound corny to me at all. I've been involved in several businesses that took the same approach to my field, software engineering, though sadly I noticed the more other businesses focused on marketing, the better they did. I am glad that Ascend appears to be the diametric opposite of ****, though as I mentioned earlier I think there can be some benefit to the 80/20 rule.

Based on my experience here, the old-school engineering feel of the company you've imparted, and the apparent maturity of the community you've built (what? post something not positive in a company's forums and get only reasonable responses?), I think I'm over the website.

As a side note, it may be worth looking into Drupal for the new site, if it is in early stages. While I dislike the PHP language it is written in, the Drupal product is free and allows a website to be designed and maintained with zero or very little code. I suspect that you would want a setup that is both functional and that does not require you hire a programmer every time you want a font size changed.

Sivar
08-24-2014, 08:21 AM
What is your issue with the forum? The security question asked is "what are the 3 numeric characters of our CBM loudspeaker model" You entered 340, which is not correct.
The issue is that I had mixed "CBM" and "CMT" in my mind somehow. Please disregard.

bds0048
08-24-2014, 09:52 AM
Yeah but if you call them you get GREAT customer service! Dina even arranged a time before normal business hours to discuss things with me because my work schedule involved 100% of the time they were open. Plus I'm one of those people who is leery of flashy websites glossed over with marketing bling and outrageous subjective claims. Too many hifi websites feature shiny pictures of their products front and center and lack the nitty gritty details.

That said someone in the other forum did suggest some better gallery shots showing off the cabinet build quality. That I agree with. I was really amazed when I saw the speakers up close in person. But keep it in the gallery not in your face where I have to click past it to get to the technical details.

donileo
08-28-2014, 08:25 AM
Sivar, I have to agree with Dave F. on this. I am a software engineer as well and I actually prefer the simplicity of the Ascend site. Yes its not Wordpress, Joomla, Ruby/Rails, its a static HTML site but thats actually great. Once you get the speakers in your hands and making music you are not going to want Dave over allocating time to the site, you want him doing work on speakers where he needs to be. Of course the site matters but I actually prefer this design versus a flashy Joomla or Wordpress or whatever. It meshes with the motto that Ascend is putting their focus on the speakers and their quality and not specifically on marketing etc. Back when I was searching for a speaker set to replace my really old JBL' 160SATs I went and tried speakers from various manufacturers. I got the Aperion Versus Grand Towers + Center + Sats and didn't like the sound, I then tried EMPtek Towers which had also been recommended and nope still not good enough.I felt I wasn't going to find the speakers whose sound would truly wow me and I almost gave up the search. On a crazy whim some time later I went and purchased the Sierra Towers and I love these things. Best towers Ive listened to ever (add a sub of course). Looking back now all those other manufacturers with flashy sites are discredited in my eyes. They may have nice sites with all those smiling people and even fake reviews (filtered reviews) on the front of their page but did I pay them all that money to advertise the speakers.. No.. I paid that money with the hopes of having amazing engineering going into the speakers, thats what I feel with these Sierras.

On an ending note, I remember when I first came to the Ascend site and saw various of the speakers listed in the products page. I was shocked when I saw a page for the frequency response graph. That single page utterly defeated any other marketing speak, glitz or anything that I had ever seen from other companies. No other manufacturer I knew of was putting a graph like this for their product. My thought was.. Seriously? You are going to display your own frequency response and not only that but this thing looks like it came right out of an Oscilloscope.. Only an engineer would do something like that lol. I trust engineers to care about their own product more so than any marketing person and without even knowing (or still knowing) if a Dave F. is an engineer after listening to the Sierra Towers my ears tell me this guy has to be haha :). A crazy psycho scientist working in a backroom with a crazy amount of disassembled speakers lol. (Thats what I imagine at least)

Sivar
09-09-2014, 01:48 PM
Allow me to quell some misunderstandings.

My webpage comments are meant to be helpful, like telling someone there's spinach on their teeth. I hate it when people don't tell me that.

A. Aperion's business model (mentioned earlier) is irrelevant. I spoke of their website because:
1) It is clearly easier to use for prospective new customers and looks very professional. I am not unreasonable in drawing some conclusions about a web-only company based on their one and only public face. This is human nature. Making a nice website is not about becoming a consumerist company. It is about having a nice website. This is more important when there is no store front.
2) I almost avoided Ascend. I know at least one other, an educated, intelligent professional, who did, based on initial impressions due to #1.

B. I advocate an easy-to-use website, not a showy, animation-laden one. I find Adobe Flash and similar irritating. Nor have I ever suggested use of Wordpress, Ruby on Rails, etc. (I did mention Drupal in passing). These are implementation details unrelated to website design. I don't think the website has to be redone from scratch, but does need some work.

C. Any website, no matter the design, will always find people that like it. This is irrelevant, since the sample size is from a limited pool of people already customers of, and familiar with, Ascend and its products. It is important to put yourself in the shoes of a new person unfamiliar with the finer points of the HTM200 SE vs the CMT 340 SE. See Curse of knowledge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge).



When designing a website, user scenarios are helpful. There are many, but let's keep it to my own because it is a common one: "I'm looking for a home theater." I visited this scenario idea earlier, but will approach it a bit differently below:

"I'm looking for a home theater", Aperion website: Mouseover "home theater systems" => Click room size => Click total price.

Notes:

I can see a photo of each clickable system. Total price is given.
The total price is shown. Shipping is included in the price to simplify orders. (I had to use a spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuGRK7Wsszy2dEMtNjJIWEJZRTJmNmtKbUdzWVotW Gc&usp=sharing) to figure out the cost of my Ascend system)
Each included component is linked with specs and nice photos, which are VERY important for spouse approval.


"I'm looking for a home theater", Axiom website: click "Products" => Home Theaters => Pick a system.
Notes:

No photo or price until I click a system, but the model numbers make it fairly clear which is higher end. I may have to click a few times to see something in my price range. Total price is given when listing different sub-models (Epic 80-800, 80-500, etc.)
"Specs" tab shows manual for each unit (though strangely, directly shows specs only for the subwoofer. :confused: Still, there are many photos on their nominal tab.
"Customize Yours" customizes the whole system. No need to manually specify the finish for each speaker when I obviously want them to match.

I'll skip Paradigm's web page for the sake of length, but it too is quite easy to use.

Aside: Yes, most of these sites list less detailed specs than the Ascend web page. This too is unrelated to website design, though it's nice. This clearly shows Ascend's ("we have nothing to hide") honest no-nonsense model, which I greatly respect, especially in this market.

"I'm looking for a home theater", Ascend website (in stream of consciousness):

No home theater-like link. Hmm. I'll look under "products". Weird, they only list subwoofers and accessories. Do they make speakers? Oh, here, "Loudspeakers". I wonder why that link isn't under "Products"?

(Mouseover "Loudspeakers"): Individual model numbers listed. What's the difference between the Sierra-1 and Sierra 2, Sierra Horizon, and Sierra Tower? Is "Sierra" a home theater setup? Which is the center channel, subwoofer, the surrounds, etc?
Do I have to click on each one?
I have no idea what any of this means. I'll click "All Loudspeakers".
...
This is better. I can see the Horizon is the high-end center, Tower is the high-end main speaker. Where are the surrounds? Only mains and centers are listed.
[Being slightly more technical, I know about CTRL+F, so I'll search for "surround"]: Only one surround is listed: the HTM-200 SE. I can get those, but it looks like they are in a completely different class than the Sierra Tower and Horizon, and they look completely unmatched from the photo. Perhaps I can get them with the same finish as those Sierras? I see no "Customize" button. I'll add a set to the basket and see if that helps....Nope. No other finish is available. Do these guys not sell complete home theaters? I'll look elsewhere.
...
Let's see -- this looks good! "System Advisor"!
What the hell? This thing doesn't even list "Sierra Towers" as being available. What? It doesn't list the Sierra Horizon as an available center channel, either!? And what? No subwoofer option is even listed?

At this point I was fairly frustrated with the simple task of trying to price a home theater system. Since I knew little of the specifics of each company, why would I (being a generic potential customer) choose Ascend at this point?

That this is a problem is, in my mind, crystal clear, as is the solution. Not everyone thinks the same, but I believe this is a strong case.

Should a lot of resources be used to build a whole new website? Probably not, since Ascend speakers are selling well. Should effort be spent to streamline, clarify, and clean it up? I think so. I am sure Ascend has UI designer, web designer, and artist customers that would work for discounted or free upgrades. I'd offer, but website design is not my area of software expertise.

timmbw
09-09-2014, 04:37 PM
And there is a collective sigh of relief from millions of business owners that Sivar will not be purchasing a product from their website.

davef
09-10-2014, 04:42 PM
While we are not an internet or marketing company, I do find Sivar's insight to be quite valuable. The question I must ask myself as the business owner:

New fancy website will definitely lead to more sales, which means further expansion and possibly full assembly of some of our goods overseas to keep up with demand (we already can't keep up).

In addition, we have always had the most knowledgeable audio customers around. I think in some regards, our website provides a filter between those who purchase on impulse and are swayed by marketing and fancy graphic design compared to those who drill down and heavily research a product. Unlike nearly all other audio companies -- we WANT the customers who purchase based on research, not based on marketing.

It is definitely a very fine line and I see things from both view points. Sivar, again, your insight is appreciated by me.

Sivar
09-10-2014, 10:08 PM
Unlike nearly all other audio companies -- we WANT the customers who purchase based on research, not based on marketing.

May I propose a hybrid solution: That some specific scenarios be addressed.


Include all Ascend products now missing from the System Advisor (Towers, Horizon) and Rythmik subwoofers. Is there a reason not to?
Show prices (incl. shipping) so that a customer can easily experiment within budget. A little JavaScript can even show them a total/estimate.
In the product list, show intended use (center/main, etc.) and perhaps price, not just the model number.
A few pre-configured system ideas would be helpful. Was this intended at some point? -- One System Advisor link is named "Package Systems".

Finally, some way to easily match finishes (insofar as is possible) would be great. Perhaps a radio button for each finish. Products made unavailable by a specific choice could be listed. This may seem silly, but once research leads one to Ascend, they must still work through the spouse acceptance issue!
These are all things I can help with if you like at no cost.

I believe this will make the browsing and ordering process more pleasant without reaching out to the B0se/Beats crowd.


New fancy website will definitely lead to more sales, which means further expansion and possibly full assembly of some of our goods overseas to keep up with demand (we already can't keep up).
While I used such websites in analogies, that was only due to their ease of use, not their fanciness. Usability, not tawdriness.

On another note, I seem to have provoked a couple of sarcastic responses due to this thread. My apologies for any offense taken.

Sivar
09-18-2014, 10:32 AM
I guess I should have read this, first: http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/about/firsttime.html
Oops.