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loonytunes
05-01-2014, 09:46 PM
I am not an audio expert and will not try to write this review as tho I am. I will give my honest opinion, and material used, so there is a reference point of some sort.
I received my Sierra RAAL towers, these are my first impressions. They arrived UPS yesterday in great condition. When I broke the seal and opened the box, I found everything in order. The gloves, frequency response printouts, a swath of baby bottom soft cloth, and a short thank you from Dave and crew. I unboxed these by myself, yes it would have been easier with a helping hand, but this was my moment and I didn't want to share it. I found the easiest method was to put the box on it's side and gently slide the contents out onto the carpet. The towers were wrapped in the same baby soft cloth. Getting through the tape on each end was, what I can only imagine as being, akin to breaking into fort knox. This was not a bad thing. It was like opening a christmas present and the joy lasted a bit longer, since the wrapping didn't just rip away to reveal its hidden treasure. Once I got the base and carpet spikes attached, I tipped the tower to its upright position. At this moment, I called my girlfriend in for the unveiling.
At this point I should add, when I originally ordered my towers, I ordered satin black. A couple days after my order was placed, Dina called to tell me they were out of that color. This was not Ascends fault, I ordered at the end of the production run and there simply weren't enough of the black cabinets. I ended up going with the satin espresso as I didn't want to wait another 2-3 mo. for the next run of tower cabinets.
Back to the unveiling. As I pulled the cloth up off of the tower to see it for the first time, we were both greeted by an absolutely beautiful speaker. The satin espresso finish is gorgeous. The gold center piece in the mid and the fit and finish all come together for a subtle contrast that just pulls you in. Very happy to this point. Everything was assembled and it was time to hear these gems.
I am running these with a brand new setup.
Sherbourn PT-7030 pre/pro
Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2 300x2 amp
Using my panasonic Blu-ray for a dac for now.
After several hours of cabling, wire and trying to figure out this new pre/pro, I finally had sound. Now please understand, we are currently in the middle of a living room remodel, waiting on the new carpet. Hence, the room is bare. The old carpet is still down but the room acoustics are similar to a racquetball court. A ton of echo.
The first disc I put in was Dire Straights. Sultans of swing, Brothers in arms, Money for nothing and So far away were the selected tracks. Immediately I was dumbfounded by the clarity and presence of the mids. Mark Knopflers' guitar sounded alive. I had auditioned many different speakers in my search, and took a bit of a chance on Ascend, as I had not heard them. It paid off. I remember only one other speaker I auditioned in my search that had mids this good, they cost 5000/pr. The vocals were anchored, concise and clear. The entire sound was balanced from bass to highs and the music had a free spirit. Everythng from the subtle ting of the high hat to the steady rhythm of the bass was present and precise. I know the towers were new, but they just begged me to push them if even a little. Who am I to argue. As I rolled the volume knob smoothly to the right, the towers responded in kind. Nothing became overpowering, they remained very well balanced. The music stayed clean and the tower never once gave any hint of being distressed or overworked.
I changed up the music a bit to something with a little more bass. U2, Joshua Tree. Once again, the mids were more than stellar, playing the Edges' guitar grooves with such precision and realism, it simply left me amazed. Bono's vocals were center stage and sounded like he was right there.
The bass was a bit lacking, allow me to explain. For what this speaker is built to do, it does very well. Scary well. But if you expect that deep bass groove from the depths of the scale, well they aren't there. Yes the bass that it does have is very clean, not one hint of distortion or booming or any of the bad things bass can do. The towers handle their business with great authority. The frequency response and driver size should be a hint at what you might expect. This is in no way a ding on the performance of these towers. I adjusted the parametric on my pre/pro at 100hz to +1. This gave it a little more bass and was more to my liking. I like a little bass heavier sound, for those that don't, no worries. For those that do, expect to pair these with a sub.
Next I worked the RAALs over. Motley Crue. Yeah I like hair metal, graduated H.S. in 89. 80's metal kept people sane while Cindy Lauper and Madonna drove everyone into a state of psychosis the world would never recover from. Need proof? Beiber and Spears, nuf said. The towers never faltered as Nicki and the boys sliced off pieces of high energy guitar licks and highs that would make most dogs run for shelter. I cannot stand it when a speaker forces the highs into my ear on the tip of an ice pick. This usually happens at volumes where this music is meant to be played. LOUD. Though I didn't want to push the towers too much, I gave them enough power to show their true nature. The RAALs performed brilliantly. Not once did I feel the urge to turn it down for fear my ears were gonna bleed. The highs remained crystal clear and well balanced in the entire range. Not one tiny hint of sibilance. Absolutely amazing.
To sum up all of this, the towers in my opinion, are absolutely a work of art. From the beautiful finish and build quality to the powerful, balanced and absolutely clean sound that emminates from them. The mids are amazing. Having the presence very few speakers can boast, and none of them at this price or less. The RAALs are simply astonishing in their ability to play clearly with out seeming peaked or piercing even at reference levels. This is definately not a speaker I would describe as bright, certainly not harsh. Capable, clean, clear, powerful, balanced, refined are all terms I would use to describe them. The bass is detailed, tight and lively. I listened to thes for a few more hours with many various artists. Sting to Bob Seeger. Pink Floyd to Enigma. Rage Against the Machine to bluesy tracks from ZZ Top. In every instance the sound was superb.
Hats off to Dave and everyone at Ascend for great customer service and a truly wonderful speaker. I look forward to completing my 5.1 setup with Ascend. Anyone looking for a reference speaker at less than reference prices should definately look at these.
P.S. When placing the towers, be mindful of where your toes are. The carpet spikes are sharp. Shoes would be recommended. ;)
I would be very interested to see what Dave can do with a larger tower. Maybe 8" woofers, 6.25 mids and of course the RAAL tweeter. Any plans in the future for such a build?

natetg57
05-14-2014, 03:12 AM
Nicely written review!

SpeedD408
05-14-2014, 05:44 PM
I've had my towers w/ RAAL for about 3 week now and love them. I love my setup (check sig). On Mothers day, I had the family over for a BBQ and my Mom and Dad loved the look and the sound. Mom loves suspense thrillers so I put in Battleship and jumped to the last 20 min. The 16" guns of the Missouri going off and all. Mom loved it. Dad had a stroke 2 years ago so he has some mental issues now. All I can say is the movie had his full attention. Eye's wide open, sitting up straight and engaged. That is worth the price on it's own.

loonytunes
05-14-2014, 09:41 PM
Thanks Nate.

Speed, thats the same route I plan to go with my speakers, different sub/s tho. How are the Sierra 2's as rears? Do you do any multi-channel music? How well does the sound on the 2's match the towers.

SpeedD408
05-15-2014, 08:43 AM
S2's as surrounds are great. They match very well. Now my S2's are about 5-feet from my sitting position and the Towers are about 15-feet away (along with the towers and center) (room is about 15x27). So that distance may be mask any issues, but I have none as they sound great. I just love the RAAL's all the way around.

Audiolover458
05-15-2014, 10:35 AM
Sweet setup Speed. That is one hot setup ( and expensive too ;-) ).

The more i come here the more I want my Front Towers sooner. I ordered them with RAALs but either a Center or Surrounds are not in the Budget any time soon.
I see you have an AMP, do they sound better with more power? I am told they really do not need an AMP to get good sound out of them.

Thanks

SpeedD408
05-15-2014, 09:28 PM
Audiolover - The Ascend speakers are passive, so they need an Amp. However, they are up there on the efficiency side so they don't need a lot of power. My Emotiva MPS-2 has 7 channels and each channel provides 200w at 8-ohm and 300w and 4-ohm load. With that said a lot of people on here have the Towers hooked up to a receiver using the built in amp and they are quite happy with them. So no they don't require a tone of extra power to run. I just liked the MPS-2 amp as it is small in footprint but yet is really 7 mono-blocks in a single chassis. It does share one power cord but each module has it's own transformer to power the module. I've thought about upgrading it, but I would really need to audition a set of 3 mono-block amps for a while before I would make the switch. I just don't think I would hear the difference so I don't see the point of spending the money. Now if something broke, that is a different story. However, even then I would probably just bye a mono-block to replace the failed module. The Emotive XPA-1L Gen-2's are about $700 each so I don't see myself purchasing 5 of those any time soon.

Audiolover458
05-15-2014, 09:51 PM
How about a Bryston 9B 3 Channel AMP upgradable to 5 Channel. 20 year parts and labor warranty.

Audiolover458
05-15-2014, 09:58 PM
Audiolover - The Ascend speakers are passive, so they need an Amp. However, they are up there on the efficiency side so they don't need a lot of power. My Emotiva MSP-2 has 7 channels and each channel provides 200w at 8-ohm and 300w and 4-ohm load. With that said a lot of people on here have the Towers hooked up to a receiver using the built in amp and they are quite happy with them. So no they don't require a tone of extra power to run. I just liked the MPS-2 amp as it is small in footprint but yet is really 7 mono-blocks in a single chassis. It does share one power cord but each module has it's own transformer to power the module. I've thought about upgrading it, but I would really need to audition a set of 3 mono-block amps for a while before I would make the switch. I just don't think I would hear the difference so I don't see the point of spending the money. Now if something broke, that is a different story. However, even then I would probably just bye a mono-block to replace the failed module. The Emotive XPA-1L Gen-2's are about $700 each so I don't see myself purchasing 5 of those any time soon.

I do not see Emotiva having a 7 channel amp online. is this new? or anything starting with MSP or MPS?

loonytunes
05-16-2014, 12:41 AM
Needing a power amp depends on a few things. If your running separates, room size, listening habits, source material etc. Check out Audioholics forum, When to add an amp, thread. Its a good points based guideline to help you decide. The XPA series amps are great amps and dont cost an arm and a leg.

SpeedD408
05-16-2014, 08:37 AM
I do not see Emotiva having a 7 channel amp online. is this new? or anything starting with MSP or MPS?

The MPS-2 is an old product from them I believe the stopped making it about 4 years ago. You can fine them used on-line at time but you would have to look and grab them as soon as they come up. I've seen a few on ebay and on Emotiva's forum, but they don't last long. They tend to go the same day they are posted and they go for about $1500 on ebay.

Emotiva doesn't make a like product any more which is sad, but also why they they get snatched up so quickly when they do come up for sale. If you find one be prepared to pay $$ for shipping as it's about 125 lbs total weight.

SpeedD408
05-16-2014, 08:53 AM
How about a Bryston 9B 3 Channel AMP upgradable to 5 Channel. 20 year parts and labor warranty.

Never heard one. Supposed to be very good. However a quick google search puts them out of my price range. (9B sst2 Pro - 5x140 @8 or 200 @4 for $8095 & Emotiva XPA-5 - 5x200@8 or 300@4 for $999).

My take on amps... a great amp should only do one thing, amplify the signal. There should be no coloration, warmth, or whatever you want to call it added to the signal. If the signal going in is one way it should be that same way coming out. To me the artist wanted their music to sound a given way and that is how it is recorded. We should honor that and have it sound that same way -as our budgets allow. Therefore if you have that kind of money in your budget. Get 3 Emotiva XPA-1 Gen2's at $1100 each and try them for 30 days. If you don't like them return them (yes they have a 30day eval policy). Even if the Bryston is better is it $$$ better? only you can answer that.

Audiolover458
05-16-2014, 03:03 PM
Never heard one. Supposed to be very good. However a quick google search puts them out of my price range. (9B sst2 Pro - 5x140 @8 or 200 @4 for $8095 & Emotiva XPA-5 - 5x200@8 or 300@4 for $999).

My take on amps... a great amp should only do one thing, amplify the signal. There should be no coloration, warmth, or whatever you want to call it added to the signal. If the signal going in is one way it should be that same way coming out. To me the artist wanted their music to sound a given way and that is how it is recorded. We should honor that and have it sound that same way -as our budgets allow. Therefore if you have that kind of money in your budget. Get 3 Emotiva XPA-1 Gen2's at $1100 each and try them for 30 days. If you don't like them return them (yes they have a 30day eval policy). Even if the Bryston is better is it $$$ better? only you can answer that.


I hear you but the coloration on the XPA seems to be a lot more. I know I can get one 9B for 5500 in 5 Channel config. But 999 sounds way better. I have no reference hearing speakers with an AMP and then without one so cant tell either way. So any AMP is an upgrade for me. Dont have space for 3 AMPS any way but good idea 3300 much better than 5500. Only thing Bryston has 20 year parts and labor warranty. I have heard some bad things about Emotiva but hardly any on the Bryston 9B.

Bryston claims their AMPS probably could be rated at twice their rating if they started being loosy goosy with them and they have more headroom compared to the EMOTIVA.

Appreciate your suggestions they are very valid. $$$$$

Harro
05-17-2014, 05:24 AM
That is a great write up looney!!!
I am sure you will be very happy with the towers for a looooooong time and will probably get the itch sooner or later to add some S2's to the system to make things even more enjoyable, but that is just me talking and or drooling. :)

audiolover: my take on amps is such that I would first get a quality AVR first. I know you said to me that you enjoy movies as well as your music and I think an AVR might be better suited to you now than to spend extra $$$ money on an amp. I have the Denon 4311ci and am very happy with it for my needs right now, but have been thinking about replacing it with a Marantz 8801, just for the 11.2 in it. At that time I would consider an amp to run my front 3 and take some of the heavy lifting off the AVR, while the AVR runs the rest of the speakers. As you heard at my home, the Denon 4311ci can play loud. Would you really need an amp for maybe an increase of 2-4dbs? I hardly think it is cost effective at the price point.

Audiolover458
05-17-2014, 08:17 AM
That is a great write up looney!!!
I am sure you will be very happy with the towers for a looooooong time and will probably get the itch sooner or later to add some S2's to the system to make things even more enjoyable, but that is just me talking and or drooling. :)

audiolover: my take on amps is such that I would first get a quality AVR first. I know you said to me that you enjoy movies as well as your music and I think an AVR might be better suited to you now than to spend extra $$$ money on an amp. I have the Denon 4311ci and am very happy with it for my needs right now, but have been thinking about replacing it with a Marantz 8801, just for the 11.2 in it. At that time I would consider an amp to run my front 3 and take some of the heavy lifting off the AVR, while the AVR runs the rest of the speakers. As you heard at my home, the Denon 4311ci can play loud. Would you really need an amp for maybe an increase of 2-4dbs? I hardly think it is cost effective at the price point.

how much u pay for Marantz8801? It is 3499 on Amazon.
To me even the EMOTIVA XPA-5 for 999 or even the higher models. Now I don't understand why you say only 2-4db gain when an AVR is rated at 140 WPC mostly 2 Channel and the AMP is 200 to 300 WPC ALL Channels driven. What am I missing here? Besides they say AMPs are discrete with no crosstalk or interference between the Channels and their Power Supplies have power to spare. :-) :-).
Way too technical for me LOL. Thanks for your patience in educating me on the subject.

loonytunes
05-17-2014, 10:37 AM
Thanks Harro.

Audiolover,
To help sort out the mystery of wattage and volume gain or db, I will generalize here so if anyone wishes to expound, please do.
You can reach 100db with as little as 40 watts. Some factors such as speaker sensitivity, room gain, listening distance come into play. To get a 3db gain you have to double the wattage. So to go from 100db to 103db, in this example, you would need 80 watts. 103 to 106, 160 watts and so on. This again is somewhat generalised.

Harro
05-17-2014, 01:05 PM
Exactly as loonytunes states. For every 3 dbs increase, you would double your watts. Now if the AVR can get you to 100db at 40 watts, why then would you add an amp except for more headroom for your volume. Which is why I stated you may want a higher quality AVR if your listening experience is 50/50 on music and home theater.

Audiolover458
05-17-2014, 06:20 PM
Exactly as loonytunes states. For every 3 dbs increase, you would double your watts. Now if the AVR can get you to 100db at 40 watts, why then would you add an amp except for more headroom for your volume. Which is why I stated you may want a higher quality AVR if your listening experience is 50/50 on music and home theater.

Hmmm, thanks guys. Now I really need to read up on it. What is a higher quality AVR. The Marantz does not look like it has more power compared to your Denon or even my Onkyo. The Marantz is 135 Watts compared to 140 Watts for the Onkyo. I believe it is this HEADROOM that everyone thinks one needs for the Volume. I guess 3DB in addition to 100DB must be a lot higher than the ratio suggests 100:103?? So it still looks like getting a 999 5 channel amp is cheaper than the 3499 Marantz :-). My Onkyo processes everything and I do not need anything more than 5.1. I would only do 11.2 if I had a dedicated HT Room which I do not so does that not make more sense for me?

loonytunes
05-17-2014, 08:33 PM
Audiolover, what model Onkyo are you running? What speakers are you currently running?

3db is a perceived increase in volume.

Audiolover458
05-18-2014, 09:17 AM
Audiolover, what model Onkyo are you running? What speakers are you currently running?

3db is a perceived increase in volume.


Audiolover, what model Onkyo are you running? What speakers are you currently running?

3db is a perceived increase in volume.

I am using an ONKYO TX-SR875 AVR. I was running the Infinity Crescendo CS3008s with them as Fronts. I have an Aperion Center and some POLK Dipole as back Surrounds. Yes, it is a very old setup. The Cs3008s lost their surrounds for the two MIDS on both the speakers so here I am trying to rebuild again. I Like value for money and I am trying to build this one again one time for the next 5 years at least and I would like it done in a manner where I dont touch it for as long as i can. I enjoy music and movies both and I want to experience what everyone calls clean, clear sound without putting in equipment I really do not need. Thank you again for your patience.
I can say that when i turn it too loud the Tweeter on the CS3008s seems like it is going to pierce my ears. I cannot listen to them for too long. There is more of the high pitch echo around the actual sound of the material being viewed beyond 15 DB on the dial if you know what I mean ( the stuff that hurts your ears and does not let you listen for long periods at that volume). So when I raise the volume the gain is not in the material being played but this stuff around it that makes your ears hurt even more.

loonytunes
05-18-2014, 12:24 PM
Audiolover,
You're rceiver looks plenty capable of running the towers. The only thing you would gain from a new receiver is newer features. They change almost every year so playing "keep up" with receiver features can put you in the poor house. If the Onkyo does what you need it to do, I don't see the need to upgrade it at this point. I would look at sub/s next. Get the heavy bass load off of your receiver and the towers. After that, the center channel. You're di-pole rears are quite sufficient for surround, upgrade those at your leisure.
If after all that you feel the need for more wattage, then buy an amp. Emo makes a great amp at a great price. I don't hear any coloration from my Emo. The Bryston is a good amp as well, but at 3-4 x the price? Maybe it's worth it, don't know, haven't heard one. I hear McIntosh is great too, I still couldn't afford one.
Thats my two centavos.

Audiolover458
05-18-2014, 02:09 PM
Audiolover,
You're rceiver looks plenty capable of running the towers. The only thing you would gain from a new receiver is newer features. They change almost every year so playing "keep up" with receiver features can put you in the poor house. If the Onkyo does what you need it to do, I don't see the need to upgrade it at this point. I would look at sub/s next. Get the heavy bass load off of your receiver and the towers. After that, the center channel. You're di-pole rears are quite sufficient for surround, upgrade those at your leisure.
If after all that you feel the need for more wattage, then buy an amp. Emo makes a great amp at a great price. I don't hear any coloration from my Emo. The Bryston is a good amp as well, but at 3-4 x the price? Maybe it's worth it, don't know, haven't heard one. I hear McIntosh is great too, I still couldn't afford one.
Thats my two centavos.

Hi Looney, Thank you so much for confirming this, I do not need any more bells and whistles at this time for this system and neither do I have the budget. The issues I was/am struggling with is if the Towers do not sound good with the Onkyo then I would be mad at myself for not having enough power.
I have a brand new JL-F113 coming to me this Friday. I know I have even heard Dave suggest that it is not as good as the Rhythik but it is beautiful, goes down low enough and is a Beast of a Machine.
The WAF Factor Alone would allow me to maybe get the Emotiva AMP this Year :-). I also have an Energy 5.2 Front besides the Aperion which I can use in the mean time and the Rears are really decent speakers for a surround even though they are nowhere close to the Sierra's but again great to look at and have enough power to make the noise. For Music I plan to listen in 2.1 mode any way. Now I am struggling between which Emotiva to plan for. After looking at the XPA-3 and XPA-5 and reading some reviews and Audioholics (btw it seems like they do not have too many posts in 2014) I am actually leaning towards XPA-2 at first to drive the Two Towers and Then may swing for the XPa-3 at a later time for the Center and Surrounds.

NOW THE WAIT FOR THE TOWERS IS EXCRUCIATING :-) :-).
I will run A/B against my Infinity to at least see how awesome the Towers are compared to them. I may even go spend 50 bucks on eBayy to get the Rubber Surrounds to repair them for this. Who knows someone may buy them for their DIY Cabinets. Their Cabinets are Natural like the Bamboo and are very very solid. I had paid 2000 for the pair in 2000 I believe.

loonytunes
05-18-2014, 04:30 PM
Minimum wattage requirement on the towers is 25 watts. You more than have that covered. It will depend on your listening preference and room response.

Audiolover458
05-18-2014, 05:51 PM
Minimum wattage requirement on the towers is 25 watts. You more than have that covered. It will depend on your listening preference and room response.

Wonder how loud they sound with 25 Watts?

I agree it does not look like the Onkyo lacks too much power unless all the speakers need a lot of volume or if i was running 7.1. I was wondering how I can tell what it does with all channels driven. These manufacturers of AVR generally only give you the specs with Two channels driven.
My living room has crazy shape. It has bamboo floor and 24x24x9. Then behind it there is the open dinning area with 14x14 by 12 ft high slanted ceiling and the dinning room is open to the 2nd floor office. To the right of the dinning room is another opening to the Breakfast area and kitchen so sound will escape there. To the left of the Living room is the formal sitting area which is 12x12 and there is no door to it either.
The Speakers will be placed where the Dinning and Living room meet. The dinning room is a ft higher than the living room so it looks separated and there is simply a railing between the two rooms.
I now have to find a way to get the F113 back into the living room. My current Boston PV1000 is sitting in the dining area in a corner behind the left speaker but between that and the Cs3008's 10 in Woofer I can still hear the low notes, just not as clear or as powerful. We shall see what happens once the Towers get here.

loonytunes
05-18-2014, 06:05 PM
I would guess around 80 watts. There is a formula for figuring this but since math was never my strong suit can't give you an exact figure. It looks like your room is quite large. 5000+ ft/3. That is considered a large room. Don't be too dissapointed if you don't reach the desired SPL. I would say you have a good case for an amp based on room size alone. Ill see what I can dig up on the WPC.

curtis
05-18-2014, 08:30 PM
Here's a peak SPL calculator. It will help you gauge how many watts you need.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Now you have to figure out how loud you listen to your material.

loonytunes
05-19-2014, 11:30 AM
Thanks Curtis.

This calculator doesn't take into affect room size. In a large open room such as Audiolover has, won't spl be affected?

Also wpc is somewhat conjectural if runing surround due to receiver rating. If i'm on the right track, volts x amps = watts? Trying to remember my electrical formulas here. Still trying to figure out what Audiolover would actually be runing 5 channels driven.

Harro
05-19-2014, 11:55 AM
Seeing as Audiolover is getting the towers and they seem to be pretty easy to run with his Onkyo, I be interested to find out the distance at his listening position will be. That may well play into how loud he would perceive it. Farther away more power, closer less power would be my thought.

loonytunes
05-19-2014, 12:12 PM
Exactly, and given the size and layout of his room, I suspect this is where his original concerns stemmed from.

curtis
05-19-2014, 02:22 PM
Thanks Curtis.

This calculator doesn't take into affect room size. In a large open room such as Audiolover has, won't spl be affected?

Also wpc is somewhat conjectural if runing surround due to receiver rating. If i'm on the right track, volts x amps = watts? Trying to remember my electrical formulas here. Still trying to figure out what Audiolover would actually be runing 5 channels driven.
For other than bass, it has more to do with distance from the speakers than the size of the room.

loonytunes
05-20-2014, 04:04 AM
Thanks curtis.

I asked around on another forum, the best I can tell you as far as wpc is a 1.1-1.8 ratio. So 140/1.1 etc. This puts you at 78-127 wpc. In surround not all channels will be driven at the same time all the time. I would say figure conservatively, 80wpc.
If I remember correctly, Daves' comment on the JL had to do with watts/efficiency of the sub, not its overall quality. The JL has a higher mass driver requiring more power. I'm sure the JL will sound good, but given room size, dual subs will likely be the route you need to go. Correct placement will make a big difference as well.

Audiolover458
05-20-2014, 07:49 PM
Exactly, and given the size and layout of his room, I suspect this is where his original concerns stemmed from.

That is correct, my room size is practically the whole first floor and all this open air to the 2nd floor. My sitting distance is about 14 feet from the speakers. They will be about 8 feet apart around my Sharp 80 Inch TV. My Infinity's looked like they could play plenty loud but i thought after about 15 DB on the dial it was more noise than sound, if you know what I mean and it hurt the ears within minutes. When we played the 340's at harro's theatre I did not feel any such thing and we were playing at 0 DB.

I will definitely try them with just the receiver first. BTW the JL F113 is half way home :-) :-). Arrival date 5/21..

Audiolover458
05-20-2014, 07:56 PM
Thanks curtis.

I asked around on another forum, the best I can tell you as far as wpc is a 1.1-1.8 ratio. So 140/1.1 etc. This puts you at 78-127 wpc. In surround not all channels will be driven at the same time all the time. I would say figure conservatively, 80wpc.
If I remember correctly, Daves' comment on the JL had to do with watts/efficiency of the sub, not its overall quality. The JL has a higher mass driver requiring more power. I'm sure the JL will sound good, but given room size, dual subs will likely be the route you need to go. Correct placement will make a big difference as well.

I know that Professional Reviews can be biased but the JL has outstanding reviews for keeping up with any music. Also unless Dave somehow knew how efficient the JL is because I cannot find the 89db he mentioned it could be awesome. Maybe someone can look at its specs on the JL Website and help me decipher it. It is 1IN MDF with dual donut reinforced cabinet and all kinds of room correction ARO stuff. Maybe in a couple of years I would get a 2nd F113. I know a guy who is selling TWO F212s and buying 4 Gothams from JL so yes theoretically there is no such thing as too much base ONLY what you can AFFORD LOL.

davef
05-20-2014, 08:33 PM
Also unless Dave somehow knew how efficient the JL is because I cannot find the 89db he mentioned it could be awesome. Maybe someone can look at its specs on the JL Website and help me decipher it.

I think you might have misunderstood me. The actual efficiency of a subwoofer "woofer" is a specification very few manufacturers would actually share. However, for someone with even medium knowledge of subwoofer design, it is rather a simple process to determine, as it is simple physics. There is no "magic" to subwoofer design, it's math. To deliver deep bass in a sealed cabinet as small as the JL, a woofer as large as the JL's must have very high mass. The higher the mass, the lower the efficiency...

It is not a knock on JL, they have NO CHOICE but to use such a heavy mass cone (and a large amount of EQ) -- otherwise the sub would never deliver anywhere near its rated -1.5dB at 20Hz. I had only mentioned this so as to not use "wattage" as any type of indication of output level or performance, as it is a meaningless spec without other information. If, for example, JL posted the actual continuous power of the subwoofer amp (as opposed to peak) and also posted what the woofer efficiency actually was, that impressive 2500 watt specification, which looks great for marketing purposes, would no longer look so impressive.

Again, not a knock on JL -- just general but important information consumers should be aware of...

Audiolover458
05-20-2014, 09:59 PM
Hi Dave, Thank you for that education. I was wondering how that information was derived and your explanation makes perfect sense. It did make me think once when I read that language that said 2500 Peak Short Term. So what do you think it is in your estimation for Continuous - closer to 600 watts?

davef
05-20-2014, 10:17 PM
Hi Dave, Thank you for that education. I was wondering how that information was derived and your explanation makes perfect sense. It did make me think once when I read that language that said 2500 Peak Short Term. So what do you think it is in your estimation for Continuous - closer to 600 watts?

While not exact, as I do not know how "peak" wattage is determined at JL, but based on root mean square calculations (RMS), simply multiply 2500 x .707 to determine RMS wattage from peak wattage. In this case, I would estimate RMS (continuous wattage) at 1767 watts.

Audiolover458
05-20-2014, 10:18 PM
I think you might have misunderstood me. The actual efficiency of a subwoofer "woofer" is a specification very few manufacturers would actually share. However, for someone with even medium knowledge of subwoofer design, it is rather a simple process to determine, as it is simple physics. There is no "magic" to subwoofer design, it's math. To deliver deep bass in a sealed cabinet as small as the JL, a woofer as large as the JL's must have very high mass. The higher the mass, the lower the efficiency...

It is not a knock on JL, they have NO CHOICE but to use such a heavy mass cone (and a large amount of EQ) -- otherwise the sub would never deliver anywhere near its rated -1.5dB at 20Hz. I had only mentioned this so as to not use "wattage" as any type of indication of output level or performance, as it is a meaningless spec without other information. If, for example, JL posted the actual continuous power of the subwoofer amp (as opposed to peak) and also posted what the woofer efficiency actually was, that impressive 2500 watt specification, which looks great for marketing purposes, would no longer look so impressive.

Again, not a knock on JL -- just general but important information consumers should be aware of...

Thanks Dave, I sent them an email asking for that information as a potential buyer :-). We'll see if they answer it.

Harro
05-22-2014, 09:32 AM
That is correct, my room size is practically the whole first floor and all this open air to the 2nd floor. My sitting distance is about 14 feet from the speakers. They will be about 8 feet apart around my Sharp 80 Inch TV. My Infinity's looked like they could play plenty loud but i thought after about 15 DB on the dial it was more noise than sound, if you know what I mean and it hurt the ears within minutes. When we played the 340's at harro's theatre I did not feel any such thing and we were playing at 0 DB.

I will definitely try them with just the receiver first. BTW the JL F113 is half way home :-) :-). Arrival date 5/21..

With your Onkyo and the towers coming your way, I do believe you will have a hard time pulling yourself away from listening to them. And in fact I think you will be finding yourself turning the volume up just because it is so clear, precise and you can't help yourself but want it louder and louder until your whole house is filled with good clean sound. :)
Now lets everybody Dance.:cool:

Audiolover458
05-22-2014, 03:44 PM
With your Onkyo and the towers coming your way, I do believe you will have a hard time pulling yourself away from listening to them. And in fact I think you will be finding yourself turning the volume up just because it is so clear, precise and you can't help yourself but want it louder and louder until your whole house is filled with good clean sound. :)
Now lets everybody Dance.:cool:

ALAS, it is 6 weeks away so I am hoping I get it BEFORE July4th Weekend so I can have a blast playing with it all weekend. The JL is on the Truck for delivery today per the FedEx Notification but it is almost 6p.m. But it is not as effective without front speakers that actually work as opposed to the ones that simply make a noise because the Mids are not playing due to the torn rubber surrounds.

I may have to get some tips from you on how to calibrate them to my room.

loonytunes
05-22-2014, 05:19 PM
In reference to the db reading, -15 is roughly 15 db below reference volume. 0 db being reference volume. This is not exact but thats the jist of it.

Audiolover458
05-22-2014, 05:25 PM
In reference to the db reading, -15 is roughly 15 db below reference volume. 0 db being reference volume. This is not exact but thats the jist of it.

Yes, Thanks. That is what I would have assumed -15 meant. So when one says reference volume what does that mean in reference to what? Is that when it is playing at max db rating of the Receiver?

Harro
05-22-2014, 06:28 PM
when you calibrate your speakers with Audyssey, it plays a twip, twip sound to each speaker. This sound is picked up by your audyssey mic ,which then tells the receiver the distance and volume of each speaker as the twip, twip goes from one speaker to the next. once all speakers are twipped out, what you have is the speakers calibrated for 75dbs, which is the reference or 0.

this is just a rough idea and a quick summary of how I interpret it. others may chime in with more knowledge than I and prove me wrong.

curtis
05-22-2014, 06:53 PM
when you calibrate your speakers with Audyssey, it plays a twip, twip sound to each speaker. This sound is picked up by your audyssey mic ,which then tells the receiver the distance and volume of each speaker as the twip, twip goes from one speaker to the next. once all speakers are twipped out, what you have is the speakers calibrated for 75dbs, which is the reference or 0.

this is just a rough idea and a quick summary of how I interpret it. others may chime in with more knowledge than I and prove me wrong.
Right...calibrated for 75dB at the listening position (where you put the mic)...which is set as 0dB on the volume dial. This is how it should work...but always smart to actually measure on your own.

"Reference Level" is defined as the volume at 75db (decibels) in your room using full band pink noise. It is good note that this was designed for full on commercial theaters, and not home/living room listening spaces. Reference levels in "normal" living rooms will seem louder than they are in a theater.

Audiolover458
05-22-2014, 10:31 PM
Right...calibrated for 75dB at the listening position (where you put the mic)...which is set as 0dB on the volume dial. This is how it should work...but always smart to actually measure on your own.

"Reference Level" is defined as the volume at 75db (decibels) in your room using full band pink noise. It is good note that this was designed for full on commercial theaters, and not home/living room listening spaces. Reference levels in "normal" living rooms will seem louder than they are in a theater.

thank you gentlemen for this lesson. It makes sense now. Curtis you are so right, 75db/0 does sound extremely loud in my room. i generally stop at -15 on the dial. especially for movies.
The JL is here and set up but calibration is still required and ore lessons on how to mesh it with my systm.

Audiolover458
05-25-2014, 04:23 PM
Hi, did my Twip Twip (Love it) with the audysseyXT after hooking up the JL F113 ( what a Beast). It made a ton of difference in my Listening area. Apparently my calibration was horrible. Had to turn down the Low Pass Filter on the JL to 40 HZ to get the better and Lower sound.

Just have to wait for those towers with RAAL now and do the Twip Twip again. Alas they are still a ways away. Will definitely not have them by July 4th Weekend per Dina's email Last week.

BTW I could barely keep it at -10 for short periods of time. I was listening between -12 and -15 for the most part.

If anyone else is wanting to test their Subs then search for Heavy Bass on Spotify and you won't be disappointed.

Audiolover458
05-25-2014, 04:36 PM
If anyone has been able to compare the Sierra-2's and the Sierra towers with RAAL side by side. Is there double the pleasure in Owning the Towers? I am thinking since I cant get the Towers for Two Months I may just go with the Sierra'2 as fronts ( not sure if THEY are in Stock) and be content with it for a Year then get the towers and use the 2's as Surrounds. ANYONE?? Please advise.

loonytunes
05-25-2014, 05:09 PM
Some might say the Sierra 2 as surrounds are overkill. I do not subscribe to that school of thought as that is exactly what I plan to do. As far as the towers, it seems if you wait until they have cabinets on hand to actually place your order, you may miss out. They seem to be selling at a pretty quick rate. IMO, place the tower order and save for the 2's. Glad to hear the sub worked out.

Audiolover458
05-25-2014, 05:57 PM
Some might say the Sierra 2 as surrounds are overkill. I do not subscribe to that school of thought as that is exactly what I plan to do. As far as the towers, it seems if you wait until they have cabinets on hand to actually place your order, you may miss out. They seem to be selling at a pretty quick rate. IMO, place the tower order and save for the 2's. Glad to hear the sub worked out.

Hi Loony, I already put in my order for the Towers with RAALs Two weeks ago.

I am having a hard time waiting because my current speakers are Toast. It would have been nice if in this case they could send something like a Sierra 1 b-Stock while we wait for the Towers. I would even pay for both ways shipping since it seems to be a reasonable 40 bucks each. That is my frustration.

yes, The Sub looks like it is enough for my room although Two would be better.
I think the picking of which sub is better can never be perfect because everyone's ears are different. Mine are worse and I need to really learn how to set the system up because i know it can be made better by a little more calibration.

davef
05-27-2014, 06:04 PM
I am having a hard time waiting because my current speakers are Toast. It would have been nice if in this case they could send something like a Sierra 1 b-Stock while we wait for the Towers. I would even pay for both ways shipping since it seems to be a reasonable 40 bucks each. That is my frustration.

Audiolover,

Why not just order the pair of B-stock Sierra-1 from us to tide you over? You have never mentioned this to us directly.

Audiolover458
05-27-2014, 07:42 PM
Audiolover,

Why not just order the pair of B-stock Sierra-1 from us to tide you over? You have never mentioned this to us directly.

Great point Dave, Unfortunately today it is simply economics. I will certainly be buying more next year perhaps a Horizon Center First and then a Pair of Sierra 2's for Surround.

Thanks for the Good Sound.
-Neal

davef
05-27-2014, 08:00 PM
Great point Dave, Unfortunately today it is simply economics. I will certainly be buying more next year perhaps a Horizon Center First and then a Pair of Sierra 2's for Surround.

Thanks for the Good Sound.
-Neal

Order the set and just return them when we ship the towers :)

Audiolover458
05-28-2014, 03:59 PM
Order the set and just return them when we ship the towers :)

I would love to but it does not look like the Towers will ship within the 30 day window. I did email Dina about it this morning but have not heard back yet. I can certainly do that if possible or maybe simply do the 30 days and then hopefully the wait is only 2 weeks.

davef
05-28-2014, 04:38 PM
I would love to but it does not look like the Towers will ship within the 30 day window. I did email Dina about it this morning but have not heard back yet. I can certainly do that if possible or maybe simply do the 30 days and then hopefully the wait is only 2 weeks.

Don't worry about the 30-day window ;) Its a loaner pair, and we do it all the time...

Audiolover458
05-28-2014, 06:39 PM
Order the set and just return them when we ship the towers :)
Thank you Dave. Missed the window today will call first thing in the morning.