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View Full Version : F15 to FV15HP for 80% music 20% movies. Good idea?



Brannigan
03-15-2014, 10:31 AM
I know the grass is always greener on the other side but I have an itch to get an FV15HP for real power way down low. Love the F15 but when I hear my dads system when I come over to watch movies his dual ported 12" $600 klipsch subs almost blow the roof off. Will I lose a noticeable amount of quality in music? I use an HK990 to cross over my sierra raal towers at 50hz. Thanks!

curtis
03-15-2014, 11:26 AM
I know the grass is always greener on the other side but I have an itch to get an FV15HP for real power way down low. Love the F15 but when I hear my dads system when I come over to watch movies his dual ported 12" $600 klipsch subs almost blow the roof off. Will I lose a noticeable amount of quality in music? I use an HK990 to cross over my sierra raal towers at 50hz. Thanks!
Also remember that a lot of that may be a result of the room and how the sub(s) is EQ'd/setup. Also could be because he has two subs.

If I remember correctly, Klipsch subs don't really have an output advantage down low over a sealed F15.

Is there a way you can borrow his subs and try them at your place.

Brannigan
03-15-2014, 11:28 AM
He offered to let me try. It would probably be a good idea before I go spending money.

Brannigan
03-15-2014, 11:32 AM
eh...i'm having doubts lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYKIF7OhJAA

curtis
03-15-2014, 11:41 AM
He offered to let me try. It would probably be a good idea before I go spending money.
And if you can, take some measurements so you really know what is going on.

Brannigan
03-15-2014, 11:50 AM
I don't have a way to do that but I'll do the best I can with my ears. Do you think just an f15hp non ported version would be a better choice? I never learned how to use the PEQ but since I cross over at 50hz maybe I can tweak it for a little more punch at the bottom without killing the amp?

curtis
03-15-2014, 10:18 PM
I don't have a way to do that but I'll do the best I can with my ears. Do you think just an f15hp non ported version would be a better choice? I never learned how to use the PEQ but since I cross over at 50hz maybe I can tweak it for a little more punch at the bottom without killing the amp?
It's hard to say without knowing what is going on.

How do you have the sub setup 14hz/high?

Brannigan
03-16-2014, 08:42 AM
yep. 14hz high damping with limiter on and volume at 12 noon. it can actually go a lot louder than my room needs but not without making music sound bloated and...spongey? i guess i thought a port might give more tactile feel without over doing the higher frequencies. i should mention my room is about 15x15x10 with carpet and a couch with 2 bookshelves.

curtis
03-16-2014, 10:30 AM
Try messing around with different tuning and damping settings.

Brannigan
03-16-2014, 06:23 PM
My system is perfect. Life's not fair. Now what do I do :(

Brannigan
03-22-2014, 07:39 AM
I haven't been able to test pops sub yet but in the mean time I was wondering if anyone knows if the issues from the audioholics review of the fv15hp were ever addressed? I think I read something about the limiter over reacting, port noise, and inaccurate controls. I realize it was a prototype so I assume all that was fixed before it went on sale.

curtis
03-24-2014, 10:26 AM
I haven't been able to test pops sub yet but in the mean time I was wondering if anyone knows if the issues from the audioholics review of the fv15hp were ever addressed? I think I read something about the limiter over reacting, port noise, and inaccurate controls. I realize it was a prototype so I assume all that was fixed before it went on sale.
There was some talk about that somewhere.

I'm not sure how a limiter can "over react". It is suppose to protect, and if you are always bumping up against the limiter, then you you need more sub.

Port noise can be an issue at the highest output at lower frequencies...again, if it is an issue, you need more sub.

I don't think the controls were "innacurate"...but maybe confusing.

I have not read about any problems with the sub in other forums...it seems to be pretty bullet proof.

Brannigan
03-24-2014, 06:54 PM
I'm not too worried. Too many people seem to like it for there to be anything that bad. Apparently it trades blows with svs' top of the line $2000 sub. Pretty impressive.

davef
03-24-2014, 07:29 PM
I haven't been able to test pops sub yet but in the mean time I was wondering if anyone knows if the issues from the audioholics review of the fv15hp were ever addressed? I think I read something about the limiter over reacting, port noise, and inaccurate controls. I realize it was a prototype so I assume all that was fixed before it went on sale.

I am not aware of any issues with the FV15HP. We have sold a very significant number of these subs since Feb 2011 and I honestly can not recall even a single complaint from a customer (other than the occasional wife complaint of it being a bit large) This is simply a fantastic subwoofer -- best in class in my professional opinion.

Brannigan
03-24-2014, 09:32 PM
sounds promising. can anyone confirm or deny whether there's a noticeable loss of sound quality in music compared to a sealed sub like my f15? assuming the price was the same between an f15hp and an fv15hp is there any compelling reason to avoid ports? sorry if this has been done to death but i figure if anyone can make a "movie sub" sound musical it would be rythmik.

davef
03-26-2014, 03:44 PM
I'm not too worried. Too many people seem to like it for there to be anything that bad. Apparently it trades blows with svs' top of the line $2000 sub. Pretty impressive.

I think it is by far the best sub at this price point, and that is not because we sell them -- we sell them because I feel this way...

Brannigan
03-26-2014, 07:55 PM
How closely does the black matte finish match the black matte on the sierra towers?

davef
03-27-2014, 11:34 PM
How closely does the black matte finish match the black matte on the sierra towers?

The black matte finish on the Sierra Towers is a higher quality painted finish while the subwoofers are a PVC wrap (same as our 340's / 170's / 200's etc.) Up close you can see differences but from a few feet away -- they look identical.

TyCanadian
08-16-2014, 08:18 AM
sounds promising. can anyone confirm or deny whether there's a noticeable loss of sound quality in music compared to a sealed sub like my f15? assuming the price was the same between an f15hp and an fv15hp is there any compelling reason to avoid ports? sorry if this has been done to death but i figure if anyone can make a "movie sub" sound musical it would be rythmik.

I'd love to hear feedback on this, too - I need to make the same decision very shortly.

As an aside, how would 2x F15HP subs sound relative to one FV15HP? Would you get the best of both worlds (output, tightness & low freq extension), in theory?

I've also heard people mention the overall bass response in the room is usually better if the bass is coming from two sources (two subs) - does anyone have experience with this?

Thanks!

Edit: I should say I'll be more like 50%/50% movies/music in a 320 sq ft room.

curtis
08-16-2014, 10:33 AM
As an aside, how would 2x F15HP subs sound relative to one FV15HP? Would you get the best of both worlds (output, tightness & low freq extension), in theory?

I've also heard people mention the overall bass response in the room is usually better if the bass is coming from two sources (two subs) - does anyone have experience with this?

This is absolutely true, and well documented.

TyCanadian
08-16-2014, 12:48 PM
This is absolutely true, and well documented.

Thanks Curtis.

That said, I've read that you'd actually need more like 3-5 sealed subs to match the output of an equivalent ported sub. However, I will not be listening or watching movies at reference levels - I tend to keep the volume knob a few notches lower than my brother does, for example, if that makes a difference in which sub I should consider. My room is about 350 sq. ft.

Is the 14 Hz vs. 18 Hz extension noticeable in movies on the F15HP vs. FV15HP? I'd likely leave both ports open if I get the FV to minimize chuffing, since I certainly want to avoid that.

Is the benefit of two subs vs. one in terms of nondirectionality significant even if I will be using Audyssey MultEQ XT32 for room correction? (I realize this is likely a subjective question.) Although there's something appealing about two subs, I'd obviously rather save the money if I can, lol :).

Thanks guys - any opinions from people with experience are much appreciated.

curtis
08-16-2014, 01:51 PM
3-5 subs to equal a ported? Where are you reading that? That may only be true at the tuning point of the port on a ported sub...even then I am not quite sure.

Your room seems large...you mentioned the square footage, what about the cubic footage? height x width x length....that is the total area the subwoofer had to move air in.

Port noise is at the extreme...I don't think it will be something you have to worry about. As the the difference in 14hz and 18hz, I doubt you would hear the difference in movies. Sealed vs ported for music....I bet you would hear the difference.

Audessey could possibly help even room response, but not anything like having more than one subwoofer.

I currently use a F15HP in a approximately 2150 cubic ft room with no issues. I would like to use another to even out room response, but don't really have a good place to put it.

TyCanadian
08-16-2014, 02:14 PM
3-5 subs to equal a ported? Where are you reading that? That may only be true at the tuning point of the port on a ported sub...even then I am not quite sure.

Your room seems large...you mentioned the square footage, what about the cubic footage? height x width x length....that is the total area the subwoofer had to move air in.

Port noise is at the extreme...I don't think it will be something you have to worry about. As the the difference in 14hz and 18hz, I doubt you would hear the difference in movies. Sealed vs ported for music....I bet you would hear the difference.

Audessey could possibly help even room response, but not anything like having more than one subwoofer.

I currently use a F15HP in a approximately 2150 cubic ft room with no issues. I would like to use another to even out room response, but don't really have a good place to put it.

My room is about 320 (or slightly bigger) sq. ft. with most of the area having a 7'9" ceiling and a smaller area having a 6'11" ceiling. So, probably around 2400 cubic feet - similar to you, maybe a bit bigger. I'm currently drafting up a floor plan to see if I can accommodate two subs :).

I heard that two subs provide a more even response, but that the ported will still have a higher output (which again, is not my primary concern as long as it's more than capable enough for my listening levels). You may be right that the 3-5x is at the tuning point for the ported sub while at higher levels, the difference is much less.

TyCanadian
08-18-2014, 10:42 AM
Hey guys,

Is anyone able to provide information similar to the below (in a comment from an SVS article) in comparing the F15HP and the FV15HP? I can't seem to find detailed measurements on either Ascend or Rythmik's sites. I'm also interested in seeing a group delay curve, but can't seem to find one of those either.

Thanks!

Ed Mullen Mod Rich • 2 months ago
Hi Richard -

Room gain will actually affect a ported sub and a sealed sub equally - both for FR and for enhancing max output. The primary difference is that a sealed sub will simply have a better chance at a flat in-room response to ULFs due to its shallower roll-off slope.

Since a ported sub rolls-off at a much steeper slope (typically 36 dB/octave with a 2nd order HPF), it will never have any chance at a flat in-room FR to ULFs, since the maximum theoretical amount of room gain is 12 dB/octave and in the real world is more like 7-9 dB/octave.

With respect to maximum output capability, the PB-2000 and the SB-2000 (single sub vs. single sub) stack-up as follows - and again this delta will remain constant in-rooom since room gain will equally augment both subs:

PB-2000 has 1.5X more maximum output at 40 Hz.
PB-2000 has 2X more maximum output at 32 Hz.
PB-2000 has 3.5X more maximum output at 25 Hz.
PB-2000 has 4X more maximum output at 20 Hz.
PB-2000 has 2.5X more maximum output at 16 Hz.

From there it's simple math - the largest max output delta occurs at 20 Hz, where you would need eight (8) SB-2000 to match the maximum output capability of your current dual PB-2000. Naturally at any of the other frequencies stated above, eight (8) SB-2000s would outgun dual PB-2000 by the ratios stated above.

To answer your specific question, if you are primarily concerned with the 16-32 Hz octave, four (4) SB-2000 will equal dual PB-2000 at 32 Hz, and will fall short by varying degrees in the 16-25 Hz bandwidth.

Ed M.

curtis
08-18-2014, 11:00 AM
Ahh...I see where you are coming from now.

I really don't think you need to worry about maximum output abilities in your room.

Your best bet is to contact Brian Ding of Rythmik.

TyCanadian
08-18-2014, 11:16 AM
Got it, thanks Curtis.

I agree, I probably don't have to worry. Just want to make sure I have all the information before making a decision, since I'll likely be living with it for the next 10 years or so! :)

JustABrah
08-18-2014, 09:55 PM
I have one E15HP and honestly I think its more than enough for movies, thought I'd for sure want two but really happy with just one... moving this thing from BC to Calgary made me grateful I only had one to move

TyCanadian
08-19-2014, 08:08 AM
Interesting - thanks for your thoughts, brah (lol).

As an aside, I know this is not ideal, but if I were to allow the subwoofers to double as end tables (one on each side of my couch), is there a recommended finish? Piano black seems like it would be easier to clean, but I've been told that in a home theater setup, you want to avoid shiny surfaces like the plague since if anything happens to reflect off of them (even a dimmed light at the side of the room or a cell phone LED), it will be very annoying. Does anyone have their take on the pros/cons of the different finishes, or the practicality of using subs as end tables, lol?

curtis
08-19-2014, 12:58 PM
Piano black is also much easier to scratch. For some he gloss is not bothersome, for others is it. It really depends on the room and lighting angles, as well as preference/tolerance.

Lots of folks use subs as end tables, but IMO, the F15 is a little small for that type of use.

If you are looking for the optimum setup, be aware, the best placement for the subs in terms of performance, is usually not the most aesthetic.

Sivar
10-03-2014, 09:26 AM
With respect to maximum output capability, the PB-2000 and the SB-2000 (single sub vs. single sub) stack-up as follows - and again this delta will remain constant in-rooom since room gain will equally augment both subs:

PB-2000 has 1.5X more maximum output at 40 Hz.
PB-2000 has 2X more maximum output at 32 Hz.
PB-2000 has 3.5X more maximum output at 25 Hz.
PB-2000 has 4X more maximum output at 20 Hz.
PB-2000 has 2.5X more maximum output at 16 Hz.

Rythmik's (http://www.rythmikaudio.com/products1.html) 20hz output is published as:


At 20 Hz, our subs vary in their maximum output capability. The output at 20 Hz is shown relative to F12.

F12: 0db (baseline)
F15: +2db
D15: +2db
LV12R: +2.5db
E15HP: + 3.5db
F15HP: +4db
FV15: +7db
FV15HP: +9.5db
F25: +8db
I can't find the source at the moment, but someone from Rythmik said that, at bass frequencies, it takes around 5dB for a perceived doubling of volume.