Head to Head Receiver Challenge. Spending $3,000 for Yamaha RX-A2010 vs Denon 4311ci

[Pianist718]

Ok, so after deliberating about buying a better receiver to accommodate my new speakers and sub, .... after hearing 50% that receiver is a major part vs another 50% of people saying that it's not ... I've decided to see for myself if I need to spend $1,000+ on a receiver.

I am going to buy;

Yamaha Rx-A2010 = $1,400
and
Denon 4311ci = $1,500

to see if I hear a difference when compared to my current Yamaha rx-v465 receiver.

I will report my findings on this board in a week.

My questions for you guys is .... what should I look for?
First run everything flat? no EQ, etc?
Second test is to use those things like Audyssey and YPAO to see which one deals best with my room?

What else???

thank you.


P.S. I hate the fact that it will take at least 10 min to switch from each receiver. Especially since I don't use banana plugs and it's not that easy to get to the back of my receiver.


My System

[Mag_Neato]

You are a brave man, Pianist!

To do this correctly some sort of switcher is the best method, where you can instantaneously switch from receiver to receiver. Of course they will have to be level-matched. I'd let each one use its auto setup to set speaker distance and levels, then go into the setup menus to check the settings(Large/small speakers, sub crossover, etc.) and try to equal those out to level the playing field. Definitely run things without EQ at first. Do a simple 2.1 setup......front L/R + sub, with the assumption that a switching box is not going to be used, to simplify transferring connections. I'd stack the units out into the room to allow easy access to front and back. Bananas will make speaker switching quick and painless. Hook up a single media source which can be played and replayed quickly. Choose a familiar track or 8 and have fun! Don't forget to turn the power OFF when making any connection changes.

[hearing specialist]

The Denon is the polar opposite of the rxv-465, your going to a 9 channel with 140 watts per channel and the 2nd finest Audyssey room correction program with built in subwoofer correction. Everything with the Denon will be better as far as available features and functions. Dial norm, various volume control adjustments, stout amplifiers, just everything crazy better. My opinion it will spank both Yamaha's. I do like the warm Yamaha sound but almost everyone that listens to a Denon at this high level will praise the clarity and dynamics. Both present unique sonic nuances. I also auditioned the Denon and their higher units and also noted the clarity signature they provide. Its all up to preference on what you think sounds good.

[Pianist718]

So .... final comparison ..... decided to buy 3 models to compare



Denon 4311ci
vs
Onkyo tx-nr818
vs
Yamaha rx-a2010


which one do you predict a winner? :-)

[Dark Ranger]

Hi Pianist,

Good luck with the face-off. This is the way to do it: evaluating components with your setup and in your own home. Take your time and try to enjoy the process. I know you have to be critical for a purchase decision, but don't forget to smell the flowers along the way. :)

I'd recommend you arrange the receivers in a manner of convenience, perhaps on the floor side-by-side. There's no need to stuff it inside the cabinet and make it pretty. I would definitely recommend you look into banana plugs for the evaluation period (at least for your mains). This will make it much easier and quicker to switch between receivers. The simplest plugs are screw-on or crimp connectors. If you prefer a bare-wire connection for final install, that's fine.

In addition, I'd also suggest you listen first in "Direct" mode to get a feel for the receiver's sonic signature. Bypass any DSP and room correction software; go direct/pure/straight. Once you've got a handle on the sound, then you can engage DSP/RCS and see how it changes.

One more thing regarding safety: remember to make any connections/disconnections with the receiver turned off. Double-check it before you make a move. I know it's easy to get involved and excited with evaluation.

Oh, one last thing: try not to have a "favorite" before you start. Keep an open mind. :)

[curtis]

I think the "winner" is going to be based largely on how you set them up, and how the comparison is done. It is going to be a lot of work to really compare and get a good feel for each unit.

Take your time and have fun. If you have the units for 30 day trials, I say spend a week with each one, spend the last week comparing them, and then ship the ones you didn't like back.

For me and my current setup, it took at least a month just to really understand how to control and understand all the settings, but is a quirky unit with an "un-conventional" EQ and placement correction system.

edit: just read Dark Ranger's response....nail on the head! I would also suggest getting banana plugs...it will save you a lot of time and effort in switching the speakers from one unit to another.

[hearing specialist]

Between the Denon and Onkyo, the Denon is the only one that can be upgraded to Audyssey Pro (installer ready) room correction. That is Audysseys top professional correction and most advanced program they offer to their top tier products licensed.

I also like the Onkyo with all the available THX modes and processing. Onkyo 7.2 vs. Denon 9.2.

The 818 is a beast with its Select2 THX certification. From your pictures of your room it does look like it would do the job vs. Ultra2 certification. Both great and I view it like this...the Denon is like a Audi and the Onkyo is a BMW, both different but both in the same series or group. Pick your flavor.

[curtis]

which one do you predict a winner? :-)



Oh, one last thing: try not to have a "favorite" before you start. Keep an open mind. :)

I'm with DR on this 100%. Asking for opinions is going to help taint your own thoughts.

[Pianist718]

How much would you care about the Damping Factor? Someone told me that Denon is not great with it compared to Yamaha and Onkyo.

[hearing specialist]

You cannot audibly measure yourself or hear, and the biggest thing you can and will notice while listening is that the 465 cannot compare to either of these higher end units. The Denon and Onkyo are higher end units with greater abilities and performance with heavier construction.

[Pianist718]

So .... after playing a bit with Denon 4311 and Onkyo 818 .....

No offense to Onkyo 818 owners but that unit is going back.

To me, even though sound was pretty good from Onkyo ... compared to Denon 4311 I found the following...

Onkyo 818

1) Sound felt a bit too plastic. Don't know how to explain it but Denon just felt more real. Maybe it's all in my head but I was there with a friend and even though he liked Onkyo too ... he felt the same about plastic sound. Denon felt more natural

2) Unit is wayyy too big. Barely fit into the space I had.

3) Knob felt cheap. Not providing a paper manual made me feel as if they were trying to save money on every possible thing and that means that there could have been many other things that got little attention.

4) Color on display. Sorry but huge turn off. Who uses that 15 year old green color on display and then adds light blue glowing color on the knob??? These 2 just don't go together and it looks bad. I am not a designer, but believe me ,,.,, if you care how your unit looks at night .... colors are bad.

5) Running Audyssey gave similar settings as Denon but not identical. I think Denon set speakers to large but crossover to advanced at 40hz fronts, 60hz surrounds. Onkyo set everything to 40Hz.

6) Denon has this nice info on the screen .... on left side of it it shows you the source capability like .... if it's dolby 5ch or 7ch or stereo ... and on right side of the screen it shows what your receiver is outputting. I like this info.

anyway .... i am sure i did not give Onkyo a fair chance. I had it on for about 3-4 hours, did not read the manual ..... cause it was on CD .... and packed it back into the box. My heart just wasn't with it.

[Mag_Neato]

I think I know what you mean regarding the sonic difference between the 2 units. I went from a Denon to an Onkyo. The way I'd describe the sonic difference is like this: The Onkyo is a meat cleaver while the Denon is a scalpel.
I sold the Onkyo and picked up a Marantz SR6003. I have the sound I was missing in the Onkyo.;)

[Dark Ranger]

Hi Pianist,

Thanks for the update. As I mentioned earlier, this is the right way to approach and evaluate new equipment--in your own home and in your own setup. Even at home, there are enough variables to worry about, let alone trying out a component on a showroom floor when there are new speakers and new electronics all set up in a different room!

Anyway, I can appreciate what you mean about the appearance and aesthetics of the Onkyo. Of course, it is a subjective thing, but it's one I can agree with. I wish you would have given it a fair shot in the sound quality department. Receivers have lots of features and (sometimes) have difficult menu structures. However, I can understand your lack of enthusiasm if your heart wasn't in it.

So, it's one down. Denon and Yamaha RX-A2010 to face off next, yes?


EDIT: Let me just say that I don't have a stake in this game. Currently, I don't use a receiver, but I have used and tried models from all three brands Pianist mentioned. I'm just along for the ride. :)

[Pianist718]

Hi Pianist,

Thanks for the update. As I mentioned earlier, this is the right way to approach and evaluate new equipment--in your own home and in your own setup. Even at home, there are enough variables to worry about, let alone trying out a component on a showroom floor when there are new speakers and new electronics all set up in a different room!

Anyway, I can appreciate what you mean about the appearance and aesthetics of the Onkyo. Of course, it is a subjective thing, but it's one I can agree with. I assume you gave it a fair shot in the sound quality department. Receivers have lots of features and (sometimes) have difficult menu structures.

So, it's one down. Denon and Yamaha RX-A2010 to face off next, yes?

Yea I know I should have used each for at least a week to get a better idea, BUT .... don't feel like keeping expensive things in my place for too long and I just didn't feel it, you know what I mean? I hate that green display color from Onkyo. Had the same green with my 11 year old HTiB system. Also it just felt cheap to me. Them saving money on manual, giving us expensive Audyssey EQ32 might have made them cut on many other things.

Regarding Yamaha ....... a friend who has been pushing me to try Yamaha (he would bet his life on Yamahas) is now giving respect to Denon after he heard what that unit got out of my speakers.

before I go on to purchase Yamaha for testing ... I want to switch back to my old Yamaha in 2-3 weeks after I perfect Denon just to see if it's worth it for me to spend $1,200 on a new receiver.

nice to go to old things to appreciate new things.

[Dark Ranger]

No worries, I understand. :)

The Denon model you tried is a very nice receiver and I'm not surprised to hear it performed well. Switching back to your current Yamaha for comparison is a good plan. I've done that myself with various things and it makes the differences more apparent. I'm curious what Audyssey would do in that room compared to YPAO (albeit an older version). However, don't forget to try music in Direct mode with no processing.

Good luck and remember to have some fun! :D

[curtis]

Did you use an SPL meter to level match the output for comparing?

[Pianist718]

Did you use an SPL meter to level match the output for comparing?

Have no clue what SPL meter is, but ...... I was able to get the sound i initially liked. I just turned on dynamic eq AND dynamic voice control to "evening" and that did the trick. Still get my sound effects but now it just sounds better.

I do have my blu ray player also set to dynamic sound control ON. I'll try disaableing it tomorrow. We'll see what happens. I just hate grabbing the remote when movies go into shooting or blowing up scenes.

[phlw]

An SPL (Sound Pressure Level) meter measures how loud the music is. The unit if measurement is Decibels (dB). An increase of 10dB is considered doubling perceived loudness of a sound.

[curtis]

Have no clue what SPL meter is, but ...... I was able to get the sound i initially liked. I just turned on dynamic eq AND dynamic voice control to "evening" and that did the trick. Still get my sound effects but now it just sounds better.

I do have my blu ray player also set to dynamic sound control ON. I'll try disaableing it tomorrow. We'll see what happens. I just hate grabbing the remote when movies go into shooting or blowing up scenes.
Sorry....I missed this.

Interesting that you like dynamic controls set to on. This reduces dynamic range, and I suspect that the dynamic voice control raises the volume of the voice range.

[Seve]

What was the outcome of this ?