Controversial .... Why Spend $1,500 ona Receiver???

[Pianist718]

Hi there,

I have been talking to people quite a lot and still don't have an answer to my question about receivers vs Amps, etc

At the moment I am a bit confused. I already spent $3,000 on upgrading my
home theater. Got the new Front and rear speakers as well as a Sub.

My system.
A/V Receiver - Yamaha rx-v465
L/R - Ascend Sierra-1 NrT
Center - Ascend Sierra-1 NrT
Surrounds - Ascend HTM-200
Sub - Rythmik F12
TV - Panasonic TH50PX60U (50' Plasma)
Blu-ray/DVD - Samsung BD 6000

Room is 13x18 with 8.5 ceiling. Do 70% movies, 30% music.

Now, people are saying that my receiver is killing the sound that my new
speakers and sub can actually produce.

One says .... get cheap receiver and buy Amp like Emotiva XPA-5. Total cost
around $1,400 spent.

My friend though tells me that separates is now too much hassle and if I
want to keep it simple and not become a pro at this but get best possible
sound from my current set up .. get a Yamaha RX-A2020 ($1,500) or Yamaha
RX-A2010 ($900). He says ... it's all about quality of components, amp and
features. He swears by the Avantage series of Yamaha and says Yamaha
RX-A2010 is all I need.

Now .... in order to find a solution, one has to first list a problem. My
problem with current receiver ....

1) Dialog is not as clear as I want it to be. I read that Yamaha RX-A2020
has a new feature called "Dialog Level Adjustment". The A2010 doesn't have
it. I read that this solves my problem.

2) Seems like a receiver has lower THD. .. 0.06.

3) I feel like better room correction technology may fix some issues I have
with my current room. (bare walls, sound bouncing off, etc, etc.)

4) "4K Pass-through & 4K Upscaling" is present on the RX-A2020 model. I am
always for better picture.

5) Sound quality .... they say Yamaha does great in that department.

I don't care about zones, and I run only a 5.1ch system now. Don't plan on
upgrading any time soon.

So .... a bit frustrated and confused. Go, cheaper 2-3 year old receiver +
Emotiva XPA-3 or -5 vs Yamaha RX-V2020 / 2010 or Marantz SR5007 ?

Any feedback is much appreciated.

thanks.

P.S. I am not trying to build an all pro system. I am OK with upgrading my
receiver every 6-7 years. Just want to get best sound possible for music
and movies from my new gear.

[curtis]

Can you show us a picture of your setup?

Dialog not as clear as you want it has me puzzled. To me, chances are it is a positioning problem.

Lower THD is probably not going to be audible.

4K pass-through and upscaling require that your display is a 4K display.

Room correction will only do so much, so it is good for us to a pic of it.

You may have posted a pic before, if so, I missed it.

[Pianist718]

The thing is .... some movies dialog sounds awesome ... clear, crisp, and some .... sound effects overpower making me add just a little more volume on dialog scenes and then go a bit lower in volume with shooting starts.

room is 13x18 with 8.5 ceiling. I sit about 8 feet away from TV.

http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/70693/width/350/height/700/flags/LL


From the side .... but I already change stands to be shorter
http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/50578/width/350/height/700/flags/LL

[curtis]

Is the back of the center channel right up against the TV? Are you using a Q-plug in it?

So it isn't that dialog is unclear, but drowned out?

Your room is about the same size as mine....well, maybe not...mine is 19x15.

[Pianist718]

Yea, while I moves my left and right speakers away from the wall ... my center is almost touching my TV. I am not using Q plug ins. Should I do that for my center???

[curtis]

Yea, while I moves my left and right speakers away from the wall ... my center is almost touching my TV. I am not using Q plug ins. Should I do that for my center???
For the center, Q-plug A for sure.

For the left and right, in that small of a room, I would try Q-plug B.

[Pianist718]

I understand the Q plug for center, but for left and right to??? what do these things do to the sound?

[curtis]

I understand the Q plug for center, but for left and right to??? what do these things do to the sound?
The description of the Q Plugs explains it....

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=3781

The Q Plug A for your center will really help with the issues you are having during special effects IMO.

[davef]

The thing is.... some movies dialog sounds awesome ... clear, crisp, and some .... sound effects overpower making me add just a little more volume on dialog scenes and then go a bit lower in volume with shooting starts.

This is actually a common issue with home theater and it is not attibuted to the speakers (unless the speakers have poor dynamic range). Just like CD's -- some movies are mixed well and others are not -- effects are sometimes just too hot and overpower dialogue.

Many receivers and DVD players now have some form of dynamic range control (DRC, or also called nightmode). This reduces the dynamic range of those effects and thus often dramatically helps with dialogue intelligibility during those action scenes. I use this all the time for movies.

Based on your positioning of the center, Q-Plug A will definitely improve overall center channel clarity but your best option, based on what you have just decribed is to enable/disable dynamic range control for those movies where the special effects are just too overpowering...

[Pianist718]

This is actually a common issue with home theater and it is not attibuted to the speakers (unless the speakers have poor dynamic range). Just like CD's -- some movies are mixed well and others are not -- effects are sometimes just too hot and overpower dialogue.

Many receivers and DVD players now have some form of dynamic range control (DRC, or also called nightmode). This reduces the dynamic range of those effects and thus often dramatically helps with dialogue intelligibility during those action scenes. I use this all the time for movies.

Based on your positioning of the center, Q-Plug A will definitely improve overall center channel clarity but your best option, based on what you have just decribed is to enable/disable dynamic range control for those movies where the special effects are just too overpowering...


good point. I have that option on my Samsung BluRay player. Should have enabled it yesterday but wanted to get the full effect of my Rythmik F12 for that movie.

thanks guys

[davef]

good point. I have that option on my Samsung BluRay player. Should have enabled it yesterday but wanted to get the full effect of my Rythmik F12 for that movie.

thanks guys

I am not sure if DRC has any affect on the LFE channel :confused: Anyone?

[natetg57]

http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2010/04/more-than-just-volume-spikes/

Audyssey Dynamic Volume is described here. Is this what you would recommend for increasing dialog intelligibility?

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/dynamic-eq

Or Dynamic EQ? I've never tried either with movies, only accidentally with music (because it defaults to 'on') and it wasn't too good.

[hearing specialist]

When I upgraded from my 465 one of the many features I gained was Dialogue Normalization. Many great receivers will have this feature. Dolby has some great info here on Metadata and explains a bunch. If you want to reduce the variables and enhance your listening experience this is just one of many supporting documents that will help in finding features you may or may not benefit from. As you and I have talked before about this receiver and my ownership experiences, you have amazing designs and sub so you know its not them. The 465 does not have within its abilities to elevate and provide features within a higher level receiver. Auto signal leveling, dialogue flat, natural processing for center channel information, exact available adjustments for center information, just to mention a few. There is so much I learned I missed having and owning the 465 when upgraded to a product that has tons more features and functions all to reduce variables and elevate the listening experience. Any of the researched links will provide gobs of info.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=121087

[davef]

http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2010/04/more-than-just-volume-spikes/

Audyssey Dynamic Volume is described here. Is this what you would recommend for increasing dialog intelligibility?

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/dynamic-eq

Or Dynamic EQ? I've never tried either with movies, only accidentally with music (because it defaults to 'on') and it wasn't too good.

Both should help but experimentation is best :)

[bkdc]

A receiver or preamp for home theater will eventually become dated by technology whereas a good speaker or good amplifier lasts forever. I think the receiver is the least important part of my setup. You do want one with decent ability. But I don't take advantage of 90% of what my Onkyo PRSC5509 preamp is capable of and I would probably have been just as happy paying far less. but the Audessy HT speaker calibration really works. I paid around 1600 for it. The thing I like most is the unlimited connectivity. I can run my digital music library through it or configure multiple sources any which way I want. If I didn't have such a complicated setup I would have gone with a simple Outlaw Audio preamplifier

[Mr McIntosh]

A receiver or preamp for home theater will eventually become dated by technology whereas a good speaker or good amplifier lasts forever. I think the receiver is the least important part of my setup. You do want one with decent ability. But I don't take advantage of 90% of what my Onkyo PRSC5509 preamp is capable of and I would probably have been just as happy paying far less. but the Audessy HT speaker calibration really works. I paid around 1600 for it. The thing I like most is the unlimited connectivity. I can run my digital music library through it or configure multiple sources any which way I want. If I didn't have such a complicated setup I would have gone with a simple Outlaw Audio preamplifier

Excellent Point. I plan on selling my McIntosh C36 preamp and keeping my McIntosh 7100 power amp and mating it with a Marantz SR5008 receiver...I figure that will last me for quite some time. Still debating on the CD player...maybe a Marantz as well. But like you said, speakers are the single most important link in the system. I think Dave once said that of the top 10 most important components in a system.... 1 thru 8 are speakers - # 9 speakers #10 everything else...or words to that effect.

[Audiolover458]

I am struggling with this one as well. The Receiver upgrade cycle is crazy. I bought the Yamaha RX-V2095 maybe 10 years ago for 1399 and it has no HDMI so 5 years ago I bought the Onkyo TX-SR875 and paid another 1200 for it. So now it supposedly does not have enough power to work with some true Audiophile speakers and get the best out of them per so many Forums.
I am confused and want to know if a receiver with 140 watts X 2 RMS is enough to Power a 5.1 system with Two Sierra Towers on order now :-).
I am almost sure that a Powered SUB does not need any of this wattage from the Receiver.
The Onkyo has the Audessy Mic for setup but I get the same thing sometimes with Dialogue where it is too low in some scenes. I have tried to counter this by telling the onkyo that the distance to the listening position is longer and also to increase the db on it.
I was thinking at some point to only get a 3 channel AMP like the XPA-3. I dont think one really needs a 5 or 7 channel AMP for an entry level setup.

Thoughts!!!

[bkdc]

Stop upgrading receivers due to power. Get a separate amplifier and preamp. Buy a good amplifier and drive it into the ground. I just received my amplifier case chassis, as I am building five separate 600W/1000W (8-ohm/4-ohm) Class-D monoblocks. I'll soon have a bunch of ICEpower 250W/125W (8-ohm/4-ohm) stereo amplifiers for sale. I plan on keeping these amplifiers until I die or technology somehow makes power amplifiers obsolete.

[Audiolover458]

I upgraded because I needed the HDMI to drive both Audio and Video and that was what I could afford at the time. Also lack of education on the subject :-) . Can I not use the Amp with my Receiver since it has the capability to be hooked to an AMP. Why do I need a Pre-Amp? Thanks...