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View Full Version : PC-13Ultra to a Rythmik?



ravingndrooling
01-30-2011, 10:39 AM
Have any of you Rythmik owners come from an SVS? I am in the process of converting my 5.1 to 2.1 and am thinking about giving up my PC-13Ultra. I like the idea of a sealed, very musical sub. I am running my Ultra in sealed mode now, so I don't know if I will be gaining anything. If the move is an upgrade, I will be happier about doing it. If it's just a lateral move, I can live with my Ultra. My room is 2500cu ft and sealed. As it is now, my Ultra is set with the gain almost all the way down. HT is still a concern, but its a side note now, not the majority by any means. All opinions are welcome.:D

hearing specialist
04-11-2011, 02:34 PM
I'll take a stab and provide my .02

From what you said one of the biggest things in switching will be advantage of the servo design. Sounds like you may want the accuracy and quickness for music and the Rythmik servo sealed would be your winning ticket. Maybe even go with a smaller driver to maximize what your goal seems to be or better yet, stereo smaller servo sealed enclosures! Now we're talkin! :D

petmotel
04-11-2013, 03:06 PM
Have any of you Rythmik owners come from an SVS? I am in the process of converting my 5.1 to 2.1 and am thinking about giving up my PC-13Ultra. I like the idea of a sealed, very musical sub. I am running my Ultra in sealed mode now, so I don't know if I will be gaining anything. If the move is an upgrade, I will be happier about doing it. If it's just a lateral move, I can live with my Ultra. My room is 2500cu ft and sealed. As it is now, my Ultra is set with the gain almost all the way down. HT is still a concern, but its a side note now, not the majority by any means. All opinions are welcome.:D

I too have an SVS PC-13 Ultra, and have often wondered if sound quality would be substantially better with a Rythmik. Since my listening room is quite small, gain is also fairly low. From my understanding, distortion from a non-servo sub is much less when not pushed too hard, but I still have that nagging feeling that I'm sacrificing sound quality which is very important to me as music is a large majority of what I use my system for.

I'd be very interested in hearing from anyone whom has listened to both subs in their own listening space. I really enjoy deep, powerful, controlled bass, and would be willing to try a Rythmik if it is indeed a noticeable improvement.

Jay

Destructo_1
04-13-2013, 10:55 AM
Hi (first post on the forum!),

I had 2x PC13-ultra (bash+sledge) in my room (2000ft3, not sealed) equalized with a SVS AS-EQ1. I made the switch to 2x F12 from Rythmik (also equalized with the AS-EQ1).

Maybe it is the shape of my room and all, but I didn't hear a difference. I too don't listen to my movies/music too loud because of the room and because I'm in a apartment. One thing for sure, the SVS was able to play louder and still be clean (to my hears).

I'm happy that I made the switch just because it saved some space and that the F12s play loud enough for me.

*I also made the switch between SVS STS-01 and Ascend Towers before switching subs, that made a HUGE difference.

Seb

FirstReflect
04-18-2013, 05:41 PM
Is yours one of the older PC13-Ultra subs with the BASH amp? Or is it the newest version with the "Sledge" DSP amp?

Regardless, the SVS Ultra subs are fantastic subs. But the Sledge DSP version offers some of the lowest distortion measurements from any subwoofer out there. And in sealed mode, it has virtually no group delay or ringing, and offers transient response that's about as fast as it gets, while still offering 20Hz and lower extension.

The older BASH amp version didn't offer quite the same level of nearly perfectly linear output with vanishingly low distortion, but it was still an excellent sub.

Just in terms of sound quality, you'd be looking at a lateral move in going to a Rythmik. Which is still saying a lot for how good the Rythmik subs are! But if you are finding any instances of "ringing" or "bloat" or "muddiness" in your bass with your PC13-Ultra sub - that is all due to your room acoustics, not the output of the subwoofer itself.

The PC13-Ultra is certainly a large sub, but it actually offers one of the smallest footprints when it is standing upright. It might be an eyesore, but in terms of how much floor space it takes up, you can't do much better. Fits perfectly on an Auralex SubDude, too ;)

Your greatest improvements in your bass are going to come from adding a second subwoofer, and positioning them optimally so that they work together to remove as many peaks, nulls, and standing waves in your room as possible. If your room is rectangular, that's going to mean putting the two subs at the mid-way points of two opposing walls - as in, the middle of the front wall, and the middle of the back wall, or the middle of both side walls. If your room is not a rectangle, then it is a far more difficult and involved process, which basically amounts to placing one of the subs, and then moving the second subwoofer, measuring, seeing what your response looks like at all of your seats, then moving the second subwoofer, measuring again, and repeating that process as many times as needed until you find the best spots.

If you are in a non-rectangular room, the "brute force" approach to making two subwoofers play nicely together might actually be easier. That involves placing the two subs wherever you like, then using Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with SubEQ HT to calibrate both subwoofers individually. Of course, that requires buying an AV Receiver or pre-pro that has those Audyssey programs, which are only found on the high end Denon, Marantz, Integra and Onkyo units. Even the TX-NR818 doesn't have it - even though it has MultEQ XT32, it does not have SubEQ HT...it just outputs mono to both subwoofers.

The other thing to consider are passive or active bass traps. Talk to the folks at GiK Acoustics to see what bass trapping steps you might be able to take to improve the bass in your room.

Regardless, the PC13-Ultra subwoofer itself is a great subwoofer, and switching over to a Rythmik isn't going to improve the bass that you hear. A second subwoofer - optimally placed - is the best solution. Acoustic bass traps are an important piece of the puzzle. And brute force processing from Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with SubEQ HT is your "last resort", but also effective.

curtis
04-18-2013, 08:44 PM
Jonathan, have you heard a Rythmik?

Blutarsky
04-19-2013, 08:08 AM
The Servo Sub was invented by my friend Arnie Nudell when he owned Infinity Speakers in the 1980's. I have owned several of his designs, both from Infinity, and Genesis. I decided to downsize my system, and am very happy with my Ascend Towers.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/arnie-nudell-here-infinity

I agree that J. would benefit from comparing servo to non servo designs. Of course, two servo subs would be a worthy goal.
B.

Mag_Neato
04-19-2013, 08:53 AM
The Servo Sub was invented by my friend Arnie Nudell when he owned Infinity Speakers in the 1980's. I have owned several of his designs, both from Infinity, and Genesis. I decided to downsize my system, and am very happy with my Ascend Towers.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/arnie-nudell-here-infinity

I agree that J. would benefit from comparing servo to non servo designs. Of course, two servo subs would be a worthy goal.
B.

While the Rythmik is a servo design, it is NOT the same as any other servo sub. Rythmik has a patent on their Direct-Servo circuit which has several advancements over traditional servo designs. See the tech page on the Rythmik website.

Agreed, it is always best to compare and find the sub which best fits your needs.

Blutarsky
04-19-2013, 10:03 AM
When my Sub finally dies, I might get Rythmik. I have read their site at length. They have made incremental improvements to Arnie's pioneering designs. This is the nature of science. I can't wait to see what is next.

Rock on!

FirstReflect
04-21-2013, 10:22 AM
In answer to Curtis,

I have, indeed, heard the Rythmik F12, F15HP, FV12, and FV15HP in person. I've not heard the remaining models in Rythmik's lineup, but I think the four I've heard are a pretty good representative sample of Rythmik overall, yes? :)

And they're excellent! But so too are the SVSound Ultra Series subs, which is why I said that my opinion is that going from an SVS PC13-Ultra to a Rythmik sub would be more of a lateral move than an obvious improvement.

The issue I was really trying to get at, though, is that going from, say, the PC13-Ultra to the Rythmik F12 would likely result in more of an audible difference - but that the difference being heard would have more to do with the combination of the subwoofers' output plus the room's contribution, rather than all of the difference being heard actually being just the subwoofers alone. That said, since the OP is running his PC13-Ultra in sealed mode, there should be much less of an audible difference in his room and setup. He might actually hear more of a difference in going from the sealed PC13-Ultra to something like the ported FV15HP. But, then again, he could just open the ports on his PC13-Ultra, and now the response would be very similar to the ported FV Rythmik!

I have to assume that the OP is looking for an improvement in the bass that he is hearing. I'm simply saying that swapping out the PC13-Ultra for a Rythmik is not the cost effective way to achieve that goal. A sealed PC13-Ultra has a very similar quality of bass output to a sealed Rythmik F15HP - at least in my experience. And a ported PC13-Ultra goes toe-to-toe with a ported Rythmik. They're very, very similar subs - which is also reflected by them being very similar in price (once shipping is factored in). While they use different technology (direct servo vs. DSP) and drivers, the bottom line is that both SVS and Rythmik are selling very high quality subwoofers for about as little money as possible. I'd stack the SVS Ultra subs up against pretty much any other subwoofer out there! Just as I would the Rythmik subs. There are subwoofers out there that can play even louder and lower, but typically at much higher prices, or using truly enormous enclosures that just aren't practical in most rooms. In terms of quality of output and bang-for-your-buck value, my opinion is that the SVS Ultra subs and the HP Rythmik subs are neck-and-neck. But I don't feel that either has any large advantage over the other. Not enough to make spending the money on a Rythmik to replace an SVS Ultra worth while.

If that money is available, I say, spend it on either a second subwoofer, or on improving your room's acoustics. If the PC13-Ultra isn't sounding as "clean" and "tight" as you'd like - that really is the room, not the subwoofer itself. Because the PC13-Ultra's natural output (as measured in a wide open field or in an anechoic chamber) is extremely clean, and free of distortion, group delay, or slow transient response. The Rythmik subs are the same way, but they're not improving upon the SVS Ultra in those areas - just matching.

So any "slowness" or "bloat" in the bass is due to the room's acoustics, and the relationship between where the seat is placed and where the sub is placed in the room. So rather than buying a new sub, the OP is better off spending the money to improve the cause of the issue!

Bass traps, optimized placement, a second subwoofer (with optimal placement of both) and/or brute force processing in the form of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 w/ SubEQ HT (or manual EQ, of course, if you've got several days available for all the painstaking trial and error and adjustments it takes to do it manually!). That's where the money should go, IMO :)

curtis
04-21-2013, 12:49 PM
Thanks Jonathan...you have heard more Rythmiks than I have, and I have not heard the latest Ultras with the Sledge amp.

Although the FV15HP is less expensive (new) than the PC-Ultra, I agree, swapping would probably not be cost effective, and that the money is better spent at "fixing" the room.

Blutarsky
04-23-2013, 09:23 AM
Set up is where the sport aspect of our hobby comes into place. Afterall, we aren't in this only to buy equipment. If you haver been a room with the system dialed in, it will create an unquenchable desire.

Just look at pictures of what some people do. Hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of gear, crammed into rooms that are acoustical nightmares. The owner is chatting about the latest cable, or component, and rhapsodising over imagined improvements.

Rant over....

B.

curtis
04-23-2013, 09:52 AM
Oh...what I'd give for a dedicated room!

Blutarsky
04-23-2013, 10:32 AM
Me too. Problem is, I want to hear my music from where I am cooking. I am afraid I wouldn't listen to as much music in a dedicated room.

B.

curtis
04-23-2013, 11:23 AM
Me too. Problem is, I want to hear my music from where I am cooking. I am afraid I wouldn't listen to as much music in a dedicated room.

I'm the same way. My house is pretty small, so when the music is playing in the living room, you can pretty much hear it all over.

OK...a dedicated room with a nice system, in addition to what you have now. :)

Blutarsky
04-23-2013, 12:01 PM
:rolleyes::)We are lucky to have a great room where I can watch my television and listen to music from the kitchen counter. It is a family tradition to watch football and cook all day. It isn't perfect because the 20 foot ceilings inhale SPL like a whale after Krill. I had monstrous speakers, but the wife got pretty quiet for a year or so. Much more effective than nagging. Wife-Fu.

When we shop for homes, I tell my wife that ALL I want is a room for this purpose. EVERY thing else is her choice. Worked so far. I have agreed to In-wall speakers for our next home. Plus, this gives me a whole new type of audio to explore.

B.

curtis
04-23-2013, 12:57 PM
That would work for me as well!

petmotel
05-04-2013, 07:50 AM
Thanks for the replies, in my case I can just be satisfied with what I have and not feel like I'm compromising. I actually have two SVS subs, the newer PC Ultra with the Sledge amp and an older PB12 Ultra with Bash amp.

I use the brute force room correction capabilities of my Anthem D2, and am very pleased with the results. Like most folks here, I would love a dedicated space with treatments and all (maybe someday).

Jay

DougMac
05-07-2013, 09:15 AM
Oh...what I'd give for a dedicated room!
Not trying to rub it in, but I have a dedicated room that I was able to design keeping in mind "golden ratio" measurements. The room tests out well and doesn't require much EQ to straighten out.

I built it up from bare concrete walls and floor, doing the framing, plumbing (there's an adjoining kitchen) electrical, sheetrock and suspended ceiling.

I owned an Infinity 10" servo sub for 25 years. It was a great little sub! I'm using an SVS PB-12 NSD that I like. I'm torn between adding another or going over to Rhythmik.

FirstReflect
05-07-2013, 10:35 AM
@DougMac

Now yours is an interesting dilemma!

The SVSound PB12-NSD is a pretty darn good sub at its price point, as you know. There are very few subs at around the same price that are as linear, and deliver the same extension right down to 20Hz. And even as you crank up the volume, the PB12-NSD remains quite linear in its output and extension. It compresses quite a bit less than most subs at its price. The only performance area where you can knock it a tiny bit is in its transient response; particularly on the decay of notes, where it has just a hint of overhang. Now, that is only in comparison to the best subs that are out there! The PB12-NSD does not have "bad" transient response or overhang. Not at all. But if you are looking for one area where it could improve, as compared to the best that is available (typically at a significantly higher price than the PB12-NSD), then that's the one area. The only other slight knock is that the PB12-NSD has pretty much nothing in the way of tuning options. It's got the one port, should not ever be sealed, and has the one 20Hz tuning, with no adjustable filters. If you have a good auto-EQ program that EQs the bass in your room, or a manual outboard EQ, then this is no concern. In smaller rooms though, the room gain on the low end of a very linear and extended sub, like the PB12-NSD, can be quite pronounced, and many auto-EQ programs don't actually EQ the deepest bass (many only EQ down to 63Hz or 32Hz). So it is often nice to have low end filters built into the sub so that you can keep the sum total of the sub's output plus the room gain nice and linear at your seat!

But here's the really tricky part: I have to assume that you're looking to keep the price point roughly the same when you buy this next sub of yours. And it sounds as though you would be buying just one additional sub. So you could either buy a second PB12-NSD, and thus have dual PB12-NSD subs that you could position carefully in order to get the most even, linear bass across multiple seats, with very little seat-to-seat variation; you could buy a Rythmik sub to replace your PB12-NSD; or, you could mix and match, I suppose, with one SVS and one Rythmik - although I don't really recommend mixing and matching, since what you end up hearing is the "worst" aspects of each sub, not the best, ie. the one with slower transient response is the one you hear. The better one always gets "dragged down", rather than the worse one being "helped up" ;)

Personally, because of the price point, and because the PB12-NSD is already a very good subwoofer, I would recommend getting a second one so that you can run duals. Multiple subwoofers is the only way to get the seat-to-seat variation down to an absolute minimum. So that is something you just cannot do any other way!

If you're keeping the price point close, then you'd most likely be considering the Rythmik F12 as the closest price competitor. That sub would give you a slight improvement in the transient response. It's one of the very best in that area! And it gives you more filter controls, although you don't really need them, given that the F12 is a sealed sub with the expected 12dB per octave roll-off that starts up around 40 Hz or so. But there's the rub! The F12 does not have the same ruler flat linearity and extension right down to 20Hz as the PB12-NSD! So you're gaining slightly in one area, but giving up some performance in another. If you enjoy the "blur your vision" and "rattle your teeth" super deep, tactile output that your PB12-NSD can deliver, then you'd be giving that up by moving over to the F12.

Moving up in price can allow you to have the best of both worlds. The SVSound Ultra series subs are some of the best in all aspects of bass reproduction. They really have no weaknesses. Similarly, Rythmik's High Output sealed, and their 15" vented subs go toe-to-toe with the SVS Ultras! But either brand's best subs are considerably more expensive.

So, in your case, you'd be making a trade off. My personal opinion is that the PB12-NSD is already very good in all areas, and adding a second PB12-NSD will give you an improvement that no lone subwoofer, no matter how good, can offer if you were to swap it out.

curtis
05-07-2013, 11:06 AM
Yup...in your dedicated HT room, I would add another PB12-NSD.

DougMac
05-10-2013, 12:47 PM
@DougMac

Now yours is an interesting dilemma!

Jonathan,

Thanks for your clear and detailed response! I guess I was considering Rhythmik for a gain in transient response. It's not that I have a problem with the PB12-NSD, I just thought by nature the servo sub would offer some improvement in this area. I didn't realize there'd be a tradeoff. I like the way the PB12-NSD digs deep. Listen to the credits music for the PBS Nova program. I can easily hear the bass drum deep fundamental although it is well integrated with the rest of the orchestra.

Everything I've read points to multiple subs. I pre-wired my home theater for two subs up front, which because of room configuration is about my only option. I'd never mix and match subs and you offer a very clear explanation of the shortcomings of doing so.

I'm far from a bass head, I prefer more integrated bass. There are some movies, though, where the LFE begs for the system to be cranked. I don't know if this is good or bad, but my Ascend/SVS combination is so distortion free that loud doesn't sound "loud".

Speaking of Ascend/SVS, they play exceptionally well together.

For the time being, I'll aspire to add another PB12-NSD. Of course, when I win the lottery, it's a complete makeover with Sierra Towers and Rhythmik subs!