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View Full Version : Ordered CBM-170 can't wait (paradigm comparison)



curtis
05-25-2004, 02:22 AM
In the very least, especially since you have a VTF-2, you will find the CBM-170 comparable to the Studio 20.

A few people have compared the CMT-340 to the Studio 60:
http://www.ascendforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=199

if you can, I suggest you order a pair of 340's to compare against the Studio 60's.

-curtis

metalaaron
05-25-2004, 02:37 AM
sorry i didn't clarify that very well in the post...

i won't get studio 60s unless i'm sure that i'll be going with the paradigm setup.
i'm probably going to base my decision on purchasing a pair of studio 60s or 340 l/r w/ custom stands on the cbm / studio 20 a/b comparison.

i'm trying to find more pictures of the custom 340 l/r w/ stands.

at this point i'm having a hard time justifying the risk of shipping a big pair of studio 60s plus having to ship again if i ever had warranty issues. my warranty would be through someone else.

curtis
05-25-2004, 02:55 AM
oh...OK...I get it now.

Maybe those that have the 340's and stands can take a few pictures.....I can host them if necessary.

-curtis

metalaaron
06-04-2004, 08:51 AM
UPDATE

sorry i've been so busy lately friends

small update here
The Ascend CBM-170 is pretty darn amazing. I have not had a lot of time with it yet, but it is certainly holding its own against my v.3 studio 20s. I really enjoy the sound of these cbm-170s. Seriously amazed AND pleased that they are contending with the paradigm references...

Gregisme
06-05-2004, 01:49 AM
thanks, I've been wondering.

metalaaron
06-08-2004, 02:52 AM
more updates

truly blown away. that is the shortest and simplest sentence i can come up with to describe the performance of the cbm-170s for the cost. it's really still unbelievable. i wake up each morning, listen, and shake my head. i think dave has put little umpa-lumpas inside of these things. ;)

i've auditioned them for long enough and my decision is to keep the ascends and sell the paradigms on ebay. i can't justify the costs of keeping the paradigms. for one, i'll need a special setup to mount the 20s as surrounds because they are so heavy. also, i'll need new stands if i purchased the 40s. then, that cc570 will also need its own stand because it will probably break my tv+stand. at least, i didn't feel comfortable leaving it sitting on top (my preference).
now, this is not to say that the paradigms are not as_good. i just don't feel that they're as_good for me as ascend - for my money. not even close. <font size="1">(felt like i was paying for someone's porsche with the paradigms)</font id="size1"> dave - i'll keep paying for the umpa lumpas. ;) ascend has obviously put a lot of hard work into their designs. catch ya later - i'm going to change CDs...

JohnnyCasaba
06-08-2004, 03:42 AM
Glad to see you are really liking the Ascends Aaron, from your posts about the other speakers you tried, I thought you might.

Quinn
06-08-2004, 07:30 AM
Congrats Aaron. I'm ready for another person that can testify from personal experience that there are better values than Paradigm out there.

metalaaron
06-08-2004, 09:16 AM
i still feel that paradigm is a good value. i think their monitor series is worth the $. their studio series is good, but i feel that you're paying a large premium for it. i wasn't too crazy about the rubber tops on the 20s. they are hard to clean and i feel like putting armor all on it. ;)

quinn&johnny - ascend is worth every penny. paradigm ref. prices and other brands left me waiting on a 'wow factor' that never arrived.
(to my ears) rockets were too laid back, axioms were too bright and ascends are just right. i'd grant this to a consistent flat response that keeps the speakers well balanced. this is not a knock on the other companies. it's just what i prefer. i hope that everyone out there can find what satisfies them. i definitely recommend getting out of the retail stores, b&m, etc. and checking out internet direct brands. i'm currently doing the same thing with my guitar (www.lakewood.de) the time and money is worth it.

metalaaron
06-15-2004, 01:13 AM
i've said it on the avsforum and i'll say it here. you don't have to spend A LOT of money for a quality loudspeaker. the cbm-170s are irrefutably unbeatable at this price point. hands down. bar none. call the doctor. it's over, baby. [8D]

Gregisme
06-15-2004, 02:38 AM
Are you picking up some Rockets for another room? If so, which ones?

And how would you describe their sound.. Specifically, how forward are each compared to one another? (I'm not asking about warmth vs. neutrality, mind you, but, as in "Ascend is 2nd row and Rocket is 7th row". That's the comparison I am curious about).

metalaaron
06-15-2004, 08:27 AM
rocket is very laid back w/ regards to treble. some people like it, some people do not. you probably won't like them if you prefer a detailed sound. (your analogy about rows is right on)

Gregisme
06-15-2004, 03:08 PM
I was going to try and setup a demo of the Rocket 250s, when I order the Ascend 170s. Not sure which I would prefer yet, but I can see myself enjoying both.. or maybe the ELTs would be a better option, I don't know. We'll see. I'm not going to obsess over it too much. If I do get a demo, and if it's still a close enough call for me, I'll stick with the Ascends (for pricing and decor-fitting factors).

curtis
06-15-2004, 03:42 PM
Greg, have you gone out to stores and listenned to speakers? That should tell you a lot about what kind of sound you like.

-curtis

Gregisme
07-07-2004, 01:26 AM
No, I haven't really done any kind of deliberate or extensive speaker auditioning. I don't really have much of an interest in doing that either, to be perfectly frank, audiophile-anathema I know. [:D]

From my casual observations over the years, I have the sense that I like detailed, crisp sounding speakers, however, my tolerance threshold for that type of sound is very limited. Maybe my one bum ear has something to do with this, i.e., the other ear is now more sensitive/fragile to this type of sound.

So.. a neutral (or possibly a warm speaker), but with detail, sounds appealing to me. The 170s often stated aspect of forward, articulated vocals, holds huge appeal for me, as the clearer expression of interesting lyrical content is a big emphasis of mine.

Then there is the value aspect & reputation that holds equal appeal, not to mention form factor. I like the relatively smaller footprint of the 170s, and the fact that these speakers can blend in pretty well as compared to the average speaker, especially now with the possibility of custom colors. Wood grain speakers (unless it's a company like RBH?.. I forget.. but the one that has like 30 different woodgrain options), I feel, are generally more difficult to seemlessly integrate into your decor.

so.. all this brings me to the Ascend doorstep. I have put together a mix cd though, and when the Ascends do eventually arrive, I'll go out and checkout some other speakers in the stores to see how they stack up to these other brands and their sound emphasises/profiles.

My one lingering concern is how they will sound with marginal recordings. Even if they are quite revealing of flaws, I might not mind it so much, but I don't know that yet. If it does end up really bothering me, then a back-up plan needs to be found. (See my post in the Totem thread for elaboration.. soon to come).

curtis
07-07-2004, 03:16 AM
A little off topic, but when I put together a mixed CD, the recordings seemed to lose something from the original. Maybe it was my process, but it was basicly a drag and drop. I was also told that Roxio did not make good mixed CDs for some reason. Sorry I can't explain the problem and the cause.

Eventhough you do not have the interest in auditioning, I think it might help you with your expectations of speakers and the marginal recordings.

-curtis

Gregisme
07-07-2004, 04:37 AM
I'm not sure why that occured, Curtis. I know there's some debate on the quality of making digital copies when using different equipment, software & methods. It always seemed to me that with the average ear, and the average equipment, any potential loss of quality would be extremely marginal, if at all.

I just figured a mix cd would be the most convenient and quick way to compare a bunch of different music, some of which is recorded well, some not so well to downright poor, as well as other specific areas of curiosity or concern (subtle details, vocal styles, keyboards, etc.).

curtis
07-07-2004, 04:45 AM
The test CD I made works well when I go to shops and listen, but there is one track that definitely sounds better on the original CD....especially on higher end systems.

-curtis

GodsMadClown
07-07-2004, 05:09 AM
http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

It lives up to its name. It is exact. It can even rescue scratched CDs with error checking and slow extraction.

Be sure to use secure ripping. Compile your own cue sheet with your own wavs. It takes some getting used to, but experience is the best teacher.

Learn it. Love it.

curtis
07-07-2004, 06:32 AM
You are not the first person to suggest EAC.....I better get on it.

-curtis

JohnnyCasaba
07-07-2004, 11:40 AM
Yeah, I wonder who the first person was, hehehe. It is amazing what it will do for badly scratched discs.

metalaaron
07-09-2004, 11:57 AM
UPDATE


I called David (great guy) up this afternoon and purchased the rest of my system (all 340s up front and a hsu vtf-3 mk2 - my 170s will go to surround duties). [8D]

It has been a long and windy road, but I have finally found something magical with the Ascends. The paradigms, axioms, and rockets were nice speakers, but I just preferred the accurate, balanced, and sonically pleasing sounds of the Ascends. It's obvious that a lot of time and careful engineering went into the development and design of these speakers. These are the real deal. The Ascends produce sound as it is meant to be heard - with a big grin on my face! [:D]


eagerly awaiting next week's delivery...

cbm-170s

craigsub
07-09-2004, 12:45 PM
Nicely done... So the comparison to the Paradigms, what were your impressions ?

metalaaron
07-09-2004, 02:47 PM
what an interesting comparison it was...

first off - i think both speakers sound good.

the studios were consistent. i mean consistent in that you won't get any surprises. i.e. "whoa, that sounded neat" you know what type of response you'll get with the studios and it's paradigm's trademark sound. craig you once described them as mechanical and i have to agree. still, a very nice and solid sound.

the ascends envelope you in music. no colorations or blankets. they're open for suggestion from your source material. i found that the 170s did a better job at separating instruments and vocals. some call this 'airy' (i believe). i think they excelled at that.
the studios higher frequencies sounded more connected. still, that's just part of their signature sound.

the studios had more bass output. that was as expected with a lower freq. response and slightly larger driver. they do pack a punch. great little bookshelves, but they are a little pricey.

again, i would recommend that someone check out both speakers.

overall impression and conclusion of 170s?
the 170 is proof that you do not have to spend an arm and a leg to obtain a quality speaker. they hold their own against speakers 2 - 3x the price that claim to hold THEIR own against speakers 2 - 3x their price. you do the math. the ascends will do the speaking. ;)

cbm-170s

craigsub
07-09-2004, 11:23 PM
That was a well thought out and written summary. I am really looking forward to getting the 340's and the H-K 630 soon - they should ship this week.

curtis
07-10-2004, 01:26 AM
Craig, I am also looking forward to you getting the setup.

-curtis

craigsub
07-10-2004, 02:28 AM
I also have a pair of Rocket 550 Series 2's on the way... The "package" price of the Rockets with a Denon 3805 is about $200 more than is the Ascend Package ... I will be doing a direct two channel comparison between the 340's and the 550's ...

curtis
07-10-2004, 03:04 AM
Package price? What are in the two packages you are comparing? the RS550MK2's are $999/pr, and the CMT-340m's are $598/pr with stands.

Unless you are comparing a 5.1 Ascend package to a pair of RS550MK2's with a Denon?

-curtis

bikeman
07-10-2004, 04:25 AM
I believe from reading the AV123 Forum that a great deal can be had on a Denon receiver if ordered with (or if one has recently ordered) speakers. I don't think Craigsub gets any special pricing even though he is doing wonders for AV's business. I'm sure Dave F. is pretty happy with his great reviews also.

David

craigsub
07-10-2004, 04:41 AM
Curtis, When I figure package pricing, I use permanent pricing. The Rocket Package # 3... Consisting of 550's, 200 center channel (AKA Bigfoot), and the 300 surrounds, a UFW-10, and a Denon 3805 Receiver will sell for $2950 total... They still have "classic" 550's for appx. $2650 for the system... that will run until about September...

Ascend, If you order five 340's and an STF-3 Sub, with the H-K 630 Receiver is about $2650 now, and will go up September 1 by $100 plus the shipping, which is free now... Somewhere around $2800 then.

Of course, the AV123 guys would want me to get a price with a custom finish, since the Rockets are a wood finish... I say this is close enough.

Questions ?

curtis
07-10-2004, 05:13 AM
No questions. I was actually thinking the package with 340's up front and 170's for surrounds with the HK630 which puts the package in the neighborhood of $2300.

Regardless.....should be interesting comparing the RS550MK2's to the CMT-340m's. I have always wanted to hear the RS550's. Another fun review for you.

-curtis

craigsub
07-10-2004, 05:31 AM
Curtis, Even if you did that... with normal pricing, you are looking at about $2400 for the system, plus $100 shipping, $140 for stands, and $78 for mounting Brackets.. ot a bit over $2700 when the sale is done... or $2500 now... and that Rockets are $2650 now... so at any given time, the price is roughly $200 difference...

It is apparent, by the way, that Rocket sets things for systems as the way to get a bargain... Their discount on systems is a LOT bigger than Ascend's is... Or, if you flip it around... You could ALSO say Ascend keeps a lower mark up ALL the time....[;)]...

curtis
07-10-2004, 07:25 AM
oops...I forgot about the stands, but in a package they will not be $140/pr.

Edit:

I just looked at the pricing on AV123 and could not find a package with the RS550MK2's.

So using the Package #5: RS 250MkII Front, RSC 200 Center, RSS 300 Rear
This package is $1599. And then I think you can add a UFW-10 for $400. Bringing the total to $1999 before shipping.

The Ascend System 33-24; CMT-340 mains, CMT-340 center, CBM-170 surrounds, Hsu STF-3
This package is $1668. Add stands and brackets for roughly less than $175, and you have $1843 before shipping.


-curtis

craigsub
07-10-2004, 09:13 AM
Curtis - Another fella had gotten the Mark II's for $200 more than the originals in a package... That being said... Your package works ok, too.. and when you factor in the finish... the pricing is pretty close... and in either case, TRY finding this kind of performance in a B&M...

On a side note... I did have word the Maple for the new VTF-3 was from the same source AV123 gets theirs.... I am REALLY tempted to grab a couple for our new basement theater... Picture a FP system, Onix Red 3's/Ref 2's/Ref 100 Center... Quad UFW-10's and Dual VTF-3/2's all in maple... The only thing holding me back is a primise to Beta Test the next Hsu Flagship.

craigsub
07-10-2004, 09:21 AM
Curtis - I am also counting the receiver... An H-K 630 (roughly $750 in a system) and the Denon 3805 ($690 in a system) ...

curtis
07-10-2004, 10:41 AM
Defnitely can not be had in a B&M!

As for the maple VTF-3...like I said in HTF, what I saw and was told was that it is a vinyl finished and no difference in pricing from matte black. If it ends up a wood veneer, I will not complain!

-curtis

JohnnyCasaba
07-10-2004, 01:53 PM
Craig,

That is a great price on the 3805, thread on HTF about price said one of the best deals from an authorized dealer was 850.00 for a b-stock unit at Dakmart.

curtis
07-10-2004, 02:01 PM
Johnny, I think Craig is right, Ascend's markup is lower overall....whether you buy a receiver or not. Onecall's price on a HK630 is $718, and they are least expensive authorized online...and they are a volume dealer.

-curtis

craigsub
07-10-2004, 02:12 PM
Johny - That price on the Denon is likely cost... but if you think about it, you bought a good speaker package... The Factory direct guys have a good idea... sell the receiver at about cost, and get the speaker package sold...

And AV123 seems to give a 25% discount on the speakers as a package... Ascend gives about 7%... But the Ascend individual pricing is lower to start...

Quinn
07-10-2004, 09:58 PM
"Of course, the AV123 guys would want me to get a price with a custom finish, since the Rockets are a wood finish... I say this is close enough."

Then of course I'll want a price with the Rocket cabinet made and speaker assembled in America.

craigsub
07-10-2004, 11:50 PM
Quinn - I am chuckling here... The debate over "Chinese Vs. American made" when I compared Hsu to SVS subwoofers was pretty intense.

And I know what you mean. My family owns 2 manufacturing companies in the States, one actually building pro audio speakers.

My auto dealerships are all domestic lines.

I am about as "pro-American" as you can get. There is a reason people are building a lot of speakers in China. When is comes down to shopping, very few people care where the product was made, including Ascend as a company. This is not a shot at Ascend, just a statement of fact. David buys his subs from Hsu because these Chinese made subwoofers sound great, and are also profitable.

Most people look at the bottom line price, and bang for the buck. Hsu was able to bring out the 2nd generation VTF-3, and lower the price 20 %, by making them in China.

It has occured to me that a solution in today's world is, if buying American is important, to get Ascend speakers and SVS subwoofers...

Comments ?

Lou-the-dog
07-11-2004, 02:31 AM
I have viewed a few American-made/foreign-made debates but have never taken part. Living in a typical small and job-hungry town in Iowa I have always wondered what the balance sheet looked like that entices American companies to have their products built overseas. Here in Iowa there is a high quality workforce that would be willing to build products (like speaker enclosures) at a pretty reasonable wage. Our cost of living is substantially lower than metro areas so people can make ends meet at a significantly lower wage scale. Iowa has their Iowa Values Fund (to entice new business) that is grant money available for building infrastructure and tax incentives are available also. Seems to me that maybe the same cost saving opportunities are available here in the US but are not being taken advantage of.

Randy

curtis
07-11-2004, 02:56 AM
Aside from the American-made/foreign-made debate, what I like is the fact that Ascend assembles, inspects, and tests each speaker, all in one facility before it is shipped to the customer.

-curtis

craigsub
07-11-2004, 03:45 AM
Yep - The Quality Control of the Ascend stuff is darn good. I do find it ironic that a lot of Rocket speaker buyers get SVS subs... and Ascend buyers get Hsu subs (part China/part America for each) ... SVS also does similar quality control that Ascend does, From what I have seen in both Hsu and Rocket products, the Qualty Control in the Chinese plant is excellent.

bombadil67
07-11-2004, 09:59 AM
The American vs. China thing is simple for me. If I purchase something, I would like for the proceeds to remain in the U.S. Therefore, either the product must be made here, or the company itself is American. I would buy a "Chinese" sub, so long as the company is American. Of course it's a bonus if you have an American manufacturer producing in the U.S.

It's also good to see companies like Ascend offering such a high-value product. There's so many options when it comes to speakers, that I know I will never buy "foreign." That's my choice. I certainly don't have a problem if someone disagrees with it.

Of course I don't have to worry about that "Chinese" sub . . . I have a Titan.[:D]

Cliff