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tywel
06-10-2009, 12:48 AM
My first post!

I have been browsing many online forums, this forum, while small, seems to be more mature and professional than most others. Hats off to Ascend for a remarkable reputation and customer base!

I seem to receive a promotional email from AV123 every week with each one more hyped than the other. I can't recall ever joining their email list but that is beside the point. The latest deal for a pair of floorstanders is hard to pass up but the price is so low that it begs the question, have their products been marked up so much in the past and did they take advantage of their own customers? I have read so much negativity about this company lately and general opinions are highly polarized, love them or hate them.

Would I be doing business with a company that is actually looking out for its own customers or a company that is simply looking to make a quick profit? I understand that all businesses are looking to make a profit but at what cost? AV123 emails read like the company is on top of their game and nothing is wrong. They do not address the many publicly discussed problems, are these "problems" just a few annoyed customers who complain or are there deep underlying problems?

I have also read that the owner of this company has run various charity raffles and has kept some or part of the proceeds. Is there any truth to this?

If discussions like this are not allowed here, please remove my post. I am not looking to start a flame war, instead I am trying to acquire some honest opinions from a community that seems less emotional and more mature than most.

thank you.

GirgleMirt
06-10-2009, 04:48 AM
The latest deal for a pair of floorstanders is hard to pass up but the price is so low that it begs the question, have their products been marked up so much in the past and did they take advantage of their own customers?

I think the answer to this is obvious. Sadly... Just one of those companies where you should not ever buy anything at 'regular' price and when buying something 'on sale' is pretty much the same as buying at regular price...

I recall one of their sales, they sold a Ref1 speaker (2 way bookshelf) which sold for 1500$, with a 999$ tube amp, for 1200$ I think it was. The exact same speaker, (except with a rosewood finish instead of piano black or their other glossy finish) plus the 999$ tube amp, for 1200$. (or 600$ each). Imagine someone buying the speaker for 1500$, and a couple of weeks later, see the exact same speaker plus amp for 300$ less than he paid just the speaker for! :mad:

When Ascend came out with the Sierras, really made them look silly btw :D

And have you read about all the issues they've been having? They sold a ton of products with known defects, and have been delaying and delaying the repairs, instead opting for sending more defective parts... Anyhow, supposedly now they have the issue resolved, but it hasn't started to ship and really I don't think anyone is naive enough to take them to their word.


AV123 emails read like the company is on top of their game and nothing is wrong.
That's hilarious, that's probably why they closed their forums, so that their extremely numerous disgruntled customers are hidden under the carpet instead of in plain view in their forums. But even then, check out forums like avsforum, audioholics, etc. you'll find a ton of people absolutely fed up with all the av123 ongoing issues.


I have also read that the owner of this company has run various charity raffles and has kept some or part of the proceeds. Is there any truth to this?
Yep, I've read it too, the guy who the charity was supposed to be for said that he received part of the money but that he was confident that Mark Schifter wouldn't screw him out of the money he supposedly raised for him. But so far, he had not received the full amount... That's pretty damn sad, and says a lot... Guessing he doesn't want to say anything which would make Mark Schifter not send him the rest of the charity money he owns him... Another guy on avsforum bought a sub directly from Mark, his personal sub, paid for it, and 7 months later, the sub has yet to be shipped.

Anyhow, I've not been a fan of theirs for a long time. Guess the whole cheesy and hype stuff has always rubbed me the wrong way, as with their 'white van on sale' scheme. But their latest issues turned even many of their strongest proponents (fanboys, kool-aid drinkers, whatever you want to call them) and are now pretty much evident to everyone, and what seem to be the worst to many is that they absolutely do not want to admit their faults, instead they just act like everything is fine and dandy and that there's absolutely nothing wrong.

(from avsforum)


Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Since you're apparently clairvoyant with all things regarding AV123 can you tell me when MLS will ship my parents the subwoofer I paid for 7 months ago that's currently sitting in his basement?
C'mon, man.. you know the answer to this question...

"SOON."

*hugs*

All the best..

:D


Guys c'mon now...no need to squabble.

Hugs ...

Kisses...

All The Best...

Take Care of yourself...

I love you guys...

oh, and...

Happy [insert holiday] to you and yours.

dallas
06-10-2009, 08:02 AM
woah. Isn't Emotiva an offshoot of av123?

curtis
06-10-2009, 08:19 AM
I have also read that the owner of this company has run various charity raffles and has kept some or part of the proceeds. Is there any truth to this?
As girglemirt pointed out, there is. There is also at least one more charity raffle(for an actual verifiable charity...the only verifiable charity the owner(AV123) ran a raffle for....all others seem to be for private parties or out of the country), where $3000 was donated out of $12,750 raised.


woah. Isn't Emotiva an offshoot of av123?
They started by selling through AV123, but then went off on their own. They are separate companies.

GirgleMirt
06-10-2009, 09:55 AM
Maybe elaborate a bit on earlier. Often some deals, might seem too good to pass up. That's exactly the spirit of what is known as the white van scam. Someone drives up in a van, wants to sell you speakers and say that somewhere someone messed up and they have extra speakers which they'll sell for a fraction of the retail price. They'll show you some litterature showing the speakers selling for 1500$, and will sell them to you for 300$. Well of course, 1500$ isn't a 'real' price, it's fake litterature. And the scam is that the speakers aren't even worth whatever they're asking... But hey, 1500$ for 300$, who could pass this up? In truth, it's a scam. The hype, 'get them fast or you'll miss out on this too good to be true one time only deal!!!' is all part of the scam.

The Rocket 850 deal is what you were talking about I think... 2000$ for 1200$... Wow! 40% off!!! That's amazing!!!! Really? Someone mentioned emotiva: (from avsforum.com)

Hans Gruber wrote:
It was only a few short years ago that Emotiva sold thier products through AV123. Emotiva went their own way without explaining why. The owner of AV123 had some not so nice things to say about Emotiva. Dan's response from Emotiva was no response.


m-fine416 wrote:
Emotiva made a lot of mistakes, but they learned from them and grew into a better company. AV123 chooses to repeat theirs. My 6 year old could tell you which approach is better and she doesn't even have an MBA.


And Emotivas make towers, similar to 850. If you compare both, the 850 will most probably cost you a couple hundreds to ship. Emotiva's towers are 1650$ (http://emotiva.com/ert83.shtm)shipped so after shipping they're very closely priced.

IMHO, av12 blows up their retail price to sell at 'normal' prices on sale. A LOT of people seem to get fooled by this, and with all the hype they used to be able to generate... Anyway, as I've said, I've really never been a fan. Personaly, I'd go with Emotiva's towers instead of av123.com. Hell, I'll never buy anything from them. Where I slightly disliked them a couple years ago, now that they've lost all trace of credibility, just no way I'd encourage them in any way.

And the charity money... Man... How low can you sink...

Basically, that's my view. Not only were their products really nothing out of the ordinary (Take Ref1 at 1500$: Review (http://stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/av123_onix_reference_1_mkii_loudspeaker/index4.html)), they're really showed as overpriced when compared to a speaker like Ascend's Sierra1... Anyhow, I don't really want to turn this into a VS thread, but imho, there's no comparison between these two companies. And really, when both companies have comparable products, 900$ Sierra Piano Black vs 1500$ Ref1 Piano Black for example, you can really see that the way both companies price their speakers is VERY different. And the fact that they were able to sell a '999$' tube amp with a '1200$' speaker for 1200$, really again just makes plainly evident what kind of pricing they do. And it's the same with pretty much all of their lines.

And anyhow, all the negativity really isn't... Superfluous... There's actually a lot of really extremely severe issues still going on today. And the fact that they had to close their forums should serve as a very obvious warning to everyone.

And anyway, you've probably just seen the tip of the iceberg. Over the years, you wouldn't believe what some of their issues were... One for example not mentioned, and absolutely ridiculous, one of their Rocket (760 I think it was) speakers got reviewed, and they showed very poor performance: Crossover seemed to be really messed up (confirmed by measurements), as in, so bad they seemed defective... av12 found all kinds of excuses, it was a photo sample or I don't remember waht, and they denied there was a problem, etc.. But later, they sold an 'upgrade' crossover, for those who wanted to 'improve' their performance... Many were pissed that they didn't simply replace the defective crossovers as they should have, and that they had to purchase new and expensive crossovers... But anyhow, someone said they must have the worst QA in the industry (people getting speakers not working; defective woofers, defective crossovers, amps, or even in some cases missing drivers!!!), sadly, it's nothing special for this company. Really... imho, the bad you're seeing isn't an exageration in the least. Just go with a reputable company!

Errr... Now I feel somewhat bad.. Maybe I should have simply said: "no comment!" :p (Do the same as Emotiva when asked why they dropped them!!!)

tywel
06-10-2009, 01:26 PM
Appreciate the comments. I am not looking to compare AV123 products or the company to Ascend. If I were able to afford one of the better Ascend systems + subwoofer it would already be in my home. I suppose I am in denial that things over there really are that bad. It does seem like they have pushed away or lost their old time supporters and are looking to establish a new customer base by offering such heavily discounted sales. They certainly can not be making much profit at these prices but I really wouldn't know.

Various people have told me to avoid associating Mr. Schifter with AV123 as he was/is the person that ran the charity raffles and has caused the bulk of the problem. They said the company (AV123) is legit but to avoid contacting or doing business with Schifter. That seems odd to me but somewhat understandable, however, Mr Schifter is the one announcing all of these sales so obviously he is still associated with the company.


As girglemirt pointed out, there is. There is also at least one more charity raffle(for an actual verifiable charity...the only verifiable charity the owner(AV123) ran a raffle for....all others seem to be for private parties or out of the country), where $3000 was donated out of $12,750 raised.

is there any verifiable proof to this? People on AVS and at TCA have told me privately that Schifter has made good on all his promised donations and that the anti-av123 crowd has blown this way out of proportion.

curtis
06-10-2009, 02:17 PM
Various people have told me to avoid associating Mr. Schifter with AV123 as he was/is the person that ran the charity raffles and has caused the bulk of the problem. They said the company (AV123) is legit but to avoid contacting or doing business with Schifter. That seems odd to me but somewhat understandable, however, Mr Schifter is the one announcing all of these sales so obviously he is still associated with the company.
That is funny. Mr. Schifter owns the company, makes the decisions, and does the communication to the public....and you are suppose to not associate him with the company?



is there any verifiable proof to this? People on AVS and at TCA have told me privately that Schifter has made good on all his promised donations and that the anti-av123 crowd has blown this way out of proportion.
Those folks are only reiterating what they have been told, and that directly contradicts what others that are involved have said, none of them have done the leg work to find out the truth. For the verifiable charity, it is on their forums unless it has been deleted....you can calculate the amount of money from the number of tickets sold, and then call the charity to find out what was donated.

tywel
06-11-2009, 08:33 PM
That is funny. Mr. Schifter owns the company, makes the decisions, and does the communication to the public....and you are suppose to not associate him with the company?

I know, it seems silly.



Those folks are only reiterating what they have been told, and that directly contradicts what others that are involved have said, none of them have done the leg work to find out the truth. For the verifiable charity, it is on their forums unless it has been deleted....you can calculate the amount of money from the number of tickets sold, and then call the charity to find out what was donated.

Can you point me in a direction or provide a link?

curtis
06-11-2009, 10:24 PM
PM sent.

GirgleMirt
06-12-2009, 04:49 AM
Why PM? Btw, isn't it completely illegal to collect money for a so called charity and then keeping the money for yourself? :confused: I can't see how this could be legal! :eek:

davef
06-12-2009, 12:52 PM
I have had so many people ask me about this -- perhaps it is time to get it of my chest although I know I have just opened up a huge can of warms. Thankfully, our forum is small enough that no one will pay attention.


Why PM?

Probably because one of those raffles was for my father. The actual donation was far short from what was collected/promised, even if retail costs for the items being raffled were deducted from the collected funds. This is a very sensitive issue for me as I had both friends and family participate in that raffle and I estimate that 50-60% of the donations went into someone's pocket.

It is important to understand that the raffle in question was not my idea, it was volunteered and announced publicly even before I approved of it. Once I read what was written and the "support" it provided for both me, my family, and more importantly to my then dying father -- I gave it my full approval and backing. I feel terrible about this and it eats me up inside. How do I tell my sister (and others) that the majority of their donation went into someone's wallet?

Could I make a big deal about it? YES. Will I? NO.

My last correspondance about this was "Let me look into it and I will get back to you". That was a very long time ago and it will be my last ever correspondance with this person until this person makes it right, and the opportunity to right the wrong is open and will remain open.

There -- it is out. Please understand how sensitive an issue this is for me and it will kill me to see this discussed in such public places as AVS or other forums. I am asking you to please keep it to yourselves -- I need to try and forget about it. Maybe getting it off my chest will help.

thank you.

curtis
06-12-2009, 01:54 PM
Dave, I'm sorry if I opened a can of worms here, but you know how much this particular case bothers me, and I have known about it for a while now.

Maybe it is because we have a close family friend losing her battle with cancer. Maybe it is because our family dog is also dealing with probable cancer. Maybe it is because I have had three close friends in the past 6 months have scares with breast cancer only to be verified as negative (thank goodness). Maybe it is my own employment status. Maybe it is all that chatter on the other forums and people not adding things up. Whatever it is, I now feel it should be out in the open more than before.

It is the only raffle that was run by AV123 and its president I know of that involved a "real" charity. What has happened is terrible.

I think you are being too kind with your 50-60% estimation. The equipment was suppose to be a donation. That said, the proceeds from the sale of raffle tickets were $12,750, of which $3000 was donated.

OK...it is now off of my chest. I won't post about it publicly on any other forum. If you want to delete it from here, I will certainly understand.

davef
06-12-2009, 02:21 PM
Curtis,

Don't worry about it. You are not the only person who figured things out. Many others have asked me about it and it kills me each time I must respond. I figure it is easier to respond openly once rather than multiple times when I am asked. Perhaps maybe I can get over it but I feel like my entire family was let down and my late father completely disrespected. I clearly remember seeing the smile on his face when I informed him of that raffle and read the kind words which were written. It was special to him (and my mother) because this was an act of kindness from a total stranger.

I need to look at the positives -- while we were clearly deceived, there still was a donation made to a very worthy cause - it could have been worse I suppose. I always knew this situation would eventually become public.

Who knows, maybe the wrong will now be righted and when it does happen, I will delete my posts on the subject.. You certainly remember what I had to go through just to get ANY of the funds donated. If not for your inquiries, I don't think any of the funds would have been sent in. Funny looking back at it now -- all the those negative comments thrown your way form those who claimed you were full of crap.

They say what comes around goes around and there is no better example than this situation.

davef
06-12-2009, 02:31 PM
To the OP,

Sorry for getting so far off topic. While I have no experience with the particular products you have mentioned, it does seem like a very good deal and I can tell you that AV123 has many happy customers.

You might also consider our current moving sale special with 340 SE mains. Add a Hsu VTF-2 subwoofer (or similar) and while it is quite a bit more expensive than what you are considering, I am confident you would be most pleased. Is shipping also included in that AV123 special? You should consider the delivered cost of the products.

Feel free to email or PM me.

bdfin
06-12-2009, 07:35 PM
I wouldn't care how " good " of a deal it was, I wouldn't give AV123 one dollar of my money even if the issues discussed above were " resolved ".
Dave has shown that he stands behind all of Ascends products and will personally........ ,let me repeat that, personally deal with even the smallest issues if need be. I feel anyone considering buying speakers owes it to themselves to give these products a try and to support a company that operates the way Dave runs his.
I've bought 4 sierras never having listened to them, and felt they were worth every dollar spent and from the sounds of other people who have done the same thing with the other models, they feel the same way.

tywel
06-12-2009, 10:36 PM
Oh my.

So it appears the issues with AV123 run deep over here too. I offer both my apologies and condolences to Dave F. I had no idea about any of this. I will keep my big mouth shut and take a more serious look at the current CMT-340 special.

What I don't understand is how a company with as much public exposure as AV123 has can sit back and not address these most serious issues. I too would think these actions most illegal.

I have an email in with them with them, no response yet. So far I am not impressed. Highly unlikely I will be supporting them.

GirgleMirt
06-13-2009, 07:52 AM
Damn... So sorry to hear Dave... :o

I don't think there's any words to describe the indignation such a despicable act brings forth... It's hard to imagine worst than this...

Anyway, as you said, good still arose from it. Curtis (thanks for pm btw!), it's still close to 50% of the amount (http://forums.av123.com/showthread.php?t=22479)... at least...

Therefore… I will take the proceeds of these Raffles and deliver 50% to The Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in David’s family’s name – and the other 50% I would like to continue our work in Khabarovsk, Russia for the Orphan’s. These monies will be used directly for medicines that are desperately needed…

12750$, 1/2 for Dave's charity and the other 1/2 to Russia's orphans, although I severely doubt any orphan saw a cent from that money... But 1/2 of ~13k = 6.5k, and 3k donated, so bit shy of 1/2... Still, Dave, I can completely understand the feelings after such betrayal by a friend, but we shouldn't forget the other wronged party: All of those who donated for their raffle and had their money stolen by this crook... I can sort of understand of why you'd want to keep this out of your mind and it not really advertising it, but making it known might actually rile up people and pressure the donated money to actually be passed on to those who deserve it... Also might prevent others from getting scammed with their raffles in the future...

I don't know exactly why, but I've always felt there was something fishy with them. And I've always hated the fact that so many people seemed to fall pray to the gimmicks, cheese, hype, etc... But hey, I still like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and honestly, I just couldn't even imagine that Mark L Shifter could sink that low. And the worst, they still operate like everything is A-ok, and many still recommend and support them... I still think they must have serious cash problems and that's part of the problem, but man, to steep so low, they've really gone to the shitters as they say...


even if retail costs for the items being raffled were deducted from the collected funds.
Man, if someone's raising a charity, how could they not DONATE the prizes?! Damnit, if you're taking the charity money to pay for the prize, it's almost like pocketing the charity money by making another $2000 sale (and I'd bet he'd charge full MSRP)... and then I'm sure, if the money is actually donated, then they write it off as their own donation (tax return)...

Anyhow, purchased 2 tickets a couple of minutes ago for the ongoing raffle... Not much but lets hope it helps a little bit... Luckily, not all people gathering money for charity do it for their own personal gain... :o


It is important to understand that the raffle in question was not my idea, it was volunteered and announced publicly even before I approved of it. Once I read what was written and the "support" it provided for both me, my family, and more importantly to my then dying father -- I gave it my full approval and backing. I feel terrible about this and it eats me up inside. How do I tell my sister (and others) that the majority of their donation went into someone's wallet?
It seems that you're somewhat feeling guilty for someone else's actions... I really don't think anyone would remotely blame you, nor that you should be feeling any guilt... This was obviously none of your fault... You're as much a victim of this as anybody else... No way you could have foreseen this, so really no reason to have any guilt about yourself...

mziegler
06-13-2009, 08:04 AM
There are probably tax issues as well given there is probably some unreported income here.

TKYR67
06-16-2009, 06:07 AM
I made the mistake of getting taken in by the AV123 hype and boy do I regret it. It is the most poorly run company I have ever had the displeasure of dealing with. Not only do I question the sanity of any person who deals with them with all the negative information you can find out about them online, I question the sanity of MLS.
AV123 is the equivalent of the modern day "white van" it's just done Internet Direct.

muzz
06-22-2009, 10:36 AM
Wow.....that's about all I can say....

quadman
07-05-2009, 12:22 AM
I'm not certain I'm going to make very many friends with my very first post on your forum, but I feel a little balance and/or a deeper look is in order with regard to this....

Now in fairness and being completely open, many of you who know me through other forums (quadriverfalls on AVS and AV123 - don't ask, it was my daughter's fault :p), know that I'm considered to be/have been a fairly avid AV123/Mark Schifter suporter. I have also spent a lot of time with him at various get togethers around the country and frankly, developed quite a good friendship with him.

Because of my participation in some of these gtg's (I was the chef :cool:) several of which I flew in, rented a hotel and car.... all at my own expense.... he would gift me a pair of speakers for my efforts. I in turn have gifted all of those speakers to friends who needed or wanted new speakers. Not that keeping the speakers for myself or giving them away would have changed a thing in this equation, I just wanted everything out on the table.

So, many or most of you may feel that my position on Mark is skewed because of the friendship and/or the gifts. I understand, as well as, accept and respect that. And, while I am certainly NOT all warm and fuzzy with the turn of events and the way things have been going over at AV123 the past couple of years, I DO feel bashing Mark and AV123 has become somewhat of a blood sport. Some of it deserved most certainly. Some, not so much I think.

With all that being said, I like so many others, felt absolutely TERRIBLE when news of this raffle and it's outcome came to light. David, on a personal note.... you and your family were in the thoughts and prayers of more than you'll ever know, including mine. Losing a parent is never easy, but losing one the way you did, what you and your family went through.... just terrible. We ALL felt for you. Which made this accounting of the raffle all the more tragic because of it's perception.

However, in the interest of being completely fair.... when looking purely at the bottom line numbers:
http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=32730&postcount=893 I personally feel that a full accounting was made with regard to the Sloan-Kettering donation. Now, semantics could certainly be argued that the prices of the goods, paypal fees and/or shipping costs should not have been deducted at retail - or at all, and in the end.... honestly, I would probably agree with you. But, since there was no mention (that I can find anyway) that the prizes/fees/shipping would be donated all or in part, I feel the accounting would stand any legal scrutiny.

Again, I'm not totally happy with some of things that have happened at AV123 or with Mark. But, I also occassionally take issue when someone is continually taken behind the woodshed and pounded into oblivian when those doing the pounding may not know all of the facts.

Thanks for allowing me to vent a little and sorry for being so long winded on my first post. I'll go slip into my flame retardent jammies, pour myself an Old Bushmills on the rocks spin up a nice Mozart Piano Concerto (with Horowitz tickling the keys of course) and call it an evening.

And, FWIW.... I don't own any Rockets and have ALWAYS been a 340 fan. I simply love that speaker. Now, if I could JUST get Curtis to send me a pair of his Sierra's to try.... :p

davef
07-05-2009, 02:18 AM
Quad,

First off -- a sincere welcome to our forum and your thoughts / opinions are most certainly appreciated.

I really don't want to get deeper into this -- especially in a public forum. If you feel a full accounting of the raffle in question was made, I take no issue and I won't argue the point with you, it is far too sensitive an issue for me.

Look, I considered Mark a friend and I gave him the benefit of the doubt even when the actual "accounting" was very different than what was stated in his emails to me. All I asked for was an explanation. If he would have stated that he was short on cash or that times were tough -- something, anything at all -- I would have been OK, we would have worked something out.

Instead, my last correspondence from him was: I promise as soon as possible reply. That was nearly a year ago and a day hasn't passed since that I haven't thought about it. Believe me when I say that I wish I could convince myself and say that everything has been accounted for... A beautiful memory of mine of has been forever tainted...

One of the very last conversations I had with my father (prior to him losing his ability to speak) was sitting outside at the picnic table with my entire family and reading Mark's raffle to him. My mother and sister actually cried at the kind words and I could see that my father was choked up. It was a beautiful moment and one that now brings me pain as it is something I wish to forget about.


honestly, I would probably agree with you. But, since there was no mention (that I can find anyway) that the prizes/fees/shipping would be donated all or in part, I feel the accounting would stand any legal scrutiny.


There are those that are going to say the "numbers" work out fine, others that will disagree; personally, I really don't care what others think anymore. There are only two people who know the actual truth in the matter and let me just state that regardless of how you look at the numbers, it can not be denied that a profit was made by using my father as the subject of a *charity* raffle. If I would have known this, I would have had that raffle shutdown or my father's name pulled from it altogether.

Since you mentioned legality, I would never pursue legal options. That would only make matters worse. My father taught me well with regard to business and people... Far more beneficial to be passive, observe and take careful notes, let people/businesses make their own mistakes and let them suffer their own consequences. All I want at this point is to forgive and forget, but I can't do this without hearing from the man himself.

You have stated your opinion and I do respect it. Please respect mine as well and let us just leave it at that. I was hoping this thread would just die off. I will probably delete the entire mess as getting it off my chest hasn't helped. I don't like discussing it and I don't like thinking about it.

quadman
07-05-2009, 08:01 AM
David.... First off, I apoligize that my post has stirred up any bad memories. Each and every one of us that were aware of your Dad's situation and what you and your family were going through were right there fighting along side you. You were constantly in our thoughts and prayers.

As most on the forums are aware.... I have almost always stuck my neck out for the man and company without ever really thinking about it in the past. Honestly, this time it's out there pretty far and quite un-comfortable. So, maybe I should just keep my big mouth shut. Of course, those that know me understand I have trouble doing that most times. ;)

Like you said, there are only TWO folks who know the details (and really, an argument could be made that only one knows every fact), so actually, I shouldn't be saying anything at all I guess. On the other hand, like anyone, it's difficult to stay on the sideline while someone who you considered a friend is flogged mercilessly. He may deserve a lot of it, but it's still hard.

For the record, if the accounting I linked is in fact what was used, then I too find the numbers reprehensible. I really do. The only reason I brought up the fact that it would pass any legal scrutiny, was because it would and that maybe should be taken into consideration. A different side, as distasteful as it is.... but a different POV for one to consider none the less.

In closing, I am once again VERY sorry if I've re-opened the wounds associated with the situation. That was NOT my intention.

davef
07-05-2009, 12:41 PM
David.... First off, I apoligize that my post has stirred up any bad memories. Each and every one of us that were aware of your Dad's situation and what you and your family were going through were right there fighting along side you. You were constantly in our thoughts and prayers.

As most on the forums are aware.... I have almost always stuck my neck out for the man and company without ever really thinking about it in the past. Honestly, this time it's out there pretty far and quite un-comfortable. So, maybe I should just keep my big mouth shut. Of course, those that know me understand I have trouble doing that most times. ;)

Like you said, there are only TWO folks who know the details (and really, an argument could be made that only one knows every fact), so actually, I shouldn't be saying anything at all I guess. On the other hand, like anyone, it's difficult to stay on the sideline while someone who you considered a friend is flogged mercilessly. He may deserve a lot of it, but it's still hard.

For the record, if the accounting I linked is in fact what was used, then I too find the numbers reprehensible. I really do. The only reason I brought up the fact that it would pass any legal scrutiny, was because it would and that maybe should be taken into consideration. A different side, as distasteful as it is.... but a different POV for one to consider none the less.

In closing, I am once again VERY sorry if I've re-opened the wounds associated with the situation. That was NOT my intention.

Hi Quad,

Thanks for the kind words of support -- I can see that you too are hurting from this mess and feel somewhat betrayed by a friend. We should all be supportive of each other as that is all we really have left at this point as our friend certainly isn't showing any support for us.

I can honestly say I wish only the best for Mark and hope that he can pull out of this fiasco in some way. However, my friendship and any association with him (both personally and professionally) is over, at least until he comes clean with me. As I mentioned to you in our PM, the only correspondance I receive from him these days is sale announcement after sale announcement.

I just read the posts over at TCA and I just can't believe this -none if it makes much sense to me (or to anyone else for that matter) and perhaps it is best if we all just let it go and focus on our loved ones. I will not spend any more of my energy on this and neither should you (it isn't beneficial and it isn't healthy)

davef
07-15-2009, 11:43 PM
My apologies but I have now "locked" this thread. Please understand that this discussion is too emotional for me and I simply do not like thinking about it.

Thanks for understanding...