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SC^SoCal
04-17-2009, 10:00 AM
Hello,

I have been reading threads in the various HT forums searching for a good sub to go with my modest system. My setup is not that big (see layout below), so I was looking for a small footprint sub that could reach lower than my powered towers. (rated ~ to the mid 20s)

With my first go at it, I bought an svs pc12+. It was nice, but big, and it went very low. However, I was unable to blend it in with my system. The svs would rumble down low but I could not get it to help in the mid leaving a big freq gap in between my towers and the sub. I ended up sending it back. Maybe if I knew then, what I kind of know now, then maybe I could have blended the svs better. But, as it is, I am now looking for something different.

What I am looking for now is something more musical and much tighter than the svs was. Then I read about these rythmik subs and based on positive user comments, the nice finish and the smaller size, I am taking a strong look at these subs. However, after my last experience, I am reluctant to buy a sub w/o hearing it. I was hoping that someone could point me in the right direction before I buy ID again.

My budget is pretty flexible and I would get the piano gloss finish. I could possibly get one f12, two f12s, or one d15. Two d15s would be too huge for my setup. I calculated the room size at ~3800 square feet but it is not a dedicated room as you can see. (See below) I am a 60HT:40music guy.

How would you choose between the different setups. Will two f12s get as low as one d15. Will it be easier or harder to blend two f12s versus just one. Will one f12 be enough for moderate listening levels? Do I need to get an SPL meter before deciding? Decisions, decisions. :D

Thanks for listening.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/USCRxE39/IMG_0001.jpg

curtis
04-17-2009, 03:56 PM
A single 15" Rythmik should have similar output to that PC12+. Two 12" Rythmiks will have more output than a single 15" if co-located. If seperated, two 12" should have similar output to a single 15", but also have smoother output throughout the room.

Yes....two 12" will have the same extension as a single 15". Both the 15 and 12 have the same extension ratings.

SC^SoCal
04-21-2009, 11:53 AM
Thanks for the reply Curtis.

I think that I'm going to purchase either 1 or 2 f12s.

Question: If I have towers with powered subs (10"), then can I get away with just one f12 and keeping the towers full range? Or will this interfere with the sound quality coming from the rythmik? I see a lot of recommendations for setting the towers to small and letting the sub handle the bass.

Thanks.

DougMac
04-21-2009, 01:33 PM
Welcome to the forum!

I have a couple of thoughts. First the problems with the SVS may not be related to the unit. Does your receiver have a way of EQing, such as Audyssey? There's a good chance your problems came from room acoustics and/or sub placement. I'd hate for you to buy another sub, only to be disappointed because the problem lay elsewhere.

Also, multiple subs, in addition to adding volume, can smooth out room response. I've seen test charts comparing the same room with one, two and four subs. In this particular test, a room with a lot of peaks and dips smoothed out considerably by the use of multiple subs.

Tell us what kind of towers you have.

Doug

ObliviusConsumr
04-21-2009, 08:32 PM
I have to agree with DougMac on this. What you heard with the SVS sub may have mostly been due to the room acoustics. Room interactions are a huge factor with low frequencies. As DougMac points out, systems like Audyssey are supposed to be helpful with room modes, but this is a last resort to what’s most important…sub placement and room treatments. Here’s a pretty technical article on the subject that will make your head spin…

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/subwoofer-placement-the-place-for-bass-part-1

I have a SVS PB10 and Ascend 170’s. I know that on paper the frequency response should be ruler flat from 20hz to 20khz with this combo but I have to tell you that when I run a frequency sweep there is a big frequency dip in the middle of my sub’s response. I know that the response issue is room interaction because it changes based on placement, also I can hear the response vary as I move to different parts of the room.

Both SVS and Rythmik subs are high quality but I were choosing between the two I’d probably lean towards Rythmik (though my SVS is nice) because the direct servo technology in Rythmik subs is supposed to keep the bass as controlled and high resolution as possible. When it comes down to it I never make full use of the output of my SVS and I’d rather that the bass I am using be as clean as possible.

SC^SoCal
04-21-2009, 10:53 PM
When I had my SVS, I used audyssey to set up my speakers. (8 positions) I also moved the sub around the room and fiddled with the gain and the mode. I could never get it right. Maybe I need better towers.

BTW, I have a 5.0 setup with Definitive bipolar towers with 10" woofers. The center and surrounds are also Definitive. My AVR is the Denon 2809.

The SVS was too big anyway. I need a sub that's a little smaller. I built a cardboard model of the f12 and it fits my space nicely. Now, is it one or two?

DougMac
04-22-2009, 08:04 AM
Now, is it one or two?
I say two! :D

I noticed your room is practically square, not the best shape for audio. :( Maybe two subs will help tame the anomolies.

Are your Definitives the BP7004? The only bipolar towers I saw listed that mentioned a 10" woofer was ones with a powered subwoofer. If this is the case, I'd definately try different settings. I thought Audyssey automatically determined speaker size. I think it would be worth trying setting the mains to small to see if the low bass muddiness you're hearing isn't coming from them. You could also experiment with setting them to large and set your crossover very low.

Whatever you decide, it may be worthwhile to download REW, get an SPL meter and run some sweeps without doing Audyssey, just to see what your room is doing. http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/

Doug

SC^SoCal
04-22-2009, 12:44 PM
Are your Definitives the BP7004? The only bipolar towers I saw listed that mentioned a 10" woofer was ones with a powered subwoofer. If this is the case, I'd definately try different settings. I thought Audyssey automatically determined speaker size. I think it would be worth trying setting the mains to small to see if the low bass muddiness you're hearing isn't coming from them. You could also experiment with setting them to large and set your crossover very low.

Thanks for the suggestions DougMac. I will definitely try this when I get the Rythmik(s). My towers are indeed the 7004s.


Whatever you decide, it may be worthwhile to download REW, get an SPL meter and run some sweeps without doing Audyssey, just to see what your room is doing. http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/

I just bought an SPL meter from Radio Shack based on suggestions from the AVS Forum. I have not figured out actually how to use it yet.

get_zwole
04-22-2009, 08:09 PM
I would say get 2 if possible and also try setting the towers crossed over at around 60hz and let the subs do the heavy lifting. That may get you a better sound. I dont think you mentioned where you crossed them just that your towers would go to the mid 20's. I prefer the sound from a dedicated sub vs powered from the tower unless im listening to direct music straight from towers.

SC^SoCal
05-03-2009, 08:09 PM
I received my F12SE on Friday and the finish is very nice. Does it sound as good as it looks? Well, when I first plugged the sub into the receiver, my whole system had a noticeable hum. I was told that it was probably a ground loop issue. I have since fixed the problem, and have been listening to the sub for a couple of days now. The bass from this sub is totally different than the bass from the pc12+. It is definitely tighter and therefore easier to blend with the rest of my setup.

I have a couple of questions though...

Does the f15 sound as good as the f12 only louder? If it does, then I will consider upgrading to the f15.

Can anyone provide a good picture of the finish on the f15? I like the piano black finish but I can live with the oak if it is black enough. My computer monitor makes the oak finish on the website look almost grey and the grille look blueish.

Thanks.

curtis
05-04-2009, 05:44 PM
From reading the Rythmik site and Brian's comments, the 15 and 12 sound the same, with 3-4dB more output on the 15".

The black oak and grille are definitely black. I will try to get some pictures up tonight.

SC^SoCal
05-04-2009, 06:55 PM
Thanks Curtis,

I would really appreciate that. :D

FWIW, I think the f12 sounds great, but I don't think one is enough for my room. (3,000+ cubic feet) I would definitely look at the f15 if it is dark enough to match my black wood surround speakers.

curtis
05-05-2009, 08:20 AM
I got caught up in the Laker game....I will get to the pictures today.

Mag_Neato
05-05-2009, 08:42 AM
Curtis, your Lakers, my Cav's, Kobe, LeBron(MVP!)....;)

RythmikAudio
05-06-2009, 04:21 AM
Thanks Curtis,

I would really appreciate that. :D

FWIW, I think the f12 sounds great, but I don't think one is enough for my room. (3,000+ cubic feet) I would definitely look at the f15 if it is dark enough to match my black wood surround speakers.

F15 is absolutely black. There is no hint of blue. you may not beleive that. I shoot the photos myself and my webmaster used Photoshop to touch them up. The bluish hue is because I didn't use the correct auto white setting. Shooting black objects is very hard as it tests the linearity of low level in CRT/plasma monitors, but the linearity of high level in LCD monitors. Neither one of them is easy.

SC^SoCal
05-06-2009, 09:51 AM
I ran audyssey with my setup and I don't think one f12 is enough for me. Like I said before, it sounds great, but I want a little more output. So, I'm thinking of getting an f15 or d15se to put in the corner of the room.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/USCRxE39/IMG_0143.jpg

Below is a pic of my surround speaker. It's wood, but it's a glossy black.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/USCRxE39/IMG_0139.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/USCRxE39/IMG_0145.jpg

How does this finish compare to the f15?

I will also be getting hardwood floors, so what do you think? d15se or f15? Thanks.


I still would like pics of the f15 and the d15se if anyone can please post them. Thanks.

TooManyHobbies
05-06-2009, 06:48 PM
SoCal, the F15 has a very similar finish to your Difinitive speakers. It is definitely black, both cabinet and grill. I am very impressed with the F15 both in music and movies. We watched "Australia" last night, and the scenes with the galloping herds of wild horses shook the house. With music, I feel the F15 is a match for the woofer section of tower speakers. I have had no regrets in my purchase decision.

Bill

curtis
05-06-2009, 11:58 PM
OK....I just snapped some pictures. Hope this helps.

http://changpics.smugmug.com/photos/530365728_eC2ZS-M.jpg
http://changpics.smugmug.com/photos/530365732_HBVXM-M.jpg

SC^SoCal
05-10-2009, 09:19 AM
Well, I have one f-12 and it sounds very nice. However, I need to put the level at 2-3 o'clock to get the response that I like. Audyssey has set the sub gain at +5dB as well. Does this sound right?

How would I most benefit, with another f12 or to just get one d15? Aesthetically wise, either will do. :D But, getting 2 f12s will be almost twice the price.

Lastly, how is the LFE signal handled if I had a dual f12 setup. Is the signal sent equally to the 2 subs. Someone in another forum had said that the sound quality went down with the more subs he added. I think that he had a Sony receiver.

Forgive my noobness.:D

SC^SoCal
05-10-2009, 09:20 AM
Thanks for the pics, Curtis. It is a nice looking sub.

curtis
05-10-2009, 09:52 AM
Thanks for the pics, Curtis. It is a nice looking sub.
Dude...just saw that you are in Torrance. You are welcome to come over and look at it in person... even though you are a Trojan. :)

RythmikAudio
05-11-2009, 05:56 AM
Dude...just saw that you are in Torrance. You are welcome to come over and look at it in person... even though you are a Trojan. :)

I assume you are a Bruin. If that is true, we should talk about football. :D

RythmikAudio
05-11-2009, 06:21 AM
Well, I have one f-12 and it sounds very nice. However, I need to put the level at 2-3 o'clock to get the response that I like. Audyssey has set the sub gain at +5dB as well. Does this sound right?

How would I most benefit, with another f12 or to just get one d15? Aesthetically wise, either will do. :D But, getting 2 f12s will be almost twice the price.

Lastly, how is the LFE signal handled if I had a dual f12 setup. Is the signal sent equally to the 2 subs. Someone in another forum had said that the sound quality went down with the more subs he added. I think that he had a Sony receiver.

Forgive my noobness.:D

"LEVEL setting" does not equal "OUTPUT CAPABILITY". LEVEL setting is to match sub with your front speakers. It has nothing to do with the max output. I know it is too easy to make that connection. Even some of my best customers would say, "the sub is so powerful that I don't even have to set the level at more than 9 o'clock position". If I want to take advantage of that psychology, I would have increased the gain of subwoofer amp by 10x. However, that gain will introduce a new source of distortion. So I really want to use gain wisely.


The level position of 2-3 o'clock is about right if you have a highly efficient ported speakers. Sealed front speakers are normally less efficient. Also my Denon receiver has a standard gain of 20x power amplifiers. If you power amplifiers have higher gain than that, that will be another reason for you to set the level on the plate amp higher. If you have two units, then either unit's gain needs to set lower to get the same output.

curtis
05-11-2009, 08:14 AM
I assume you are a Bruin. If that is true, we should talk about football. :D
aww...that's a low blow! :) Yes, I am a Bruin fan, but didn't go to UCLA. I'm not a Trojan hater...just more of a UC fan.

get_zwole
05-11-2009, 08:20 AM
aww...that's a low blow! :) Yes, I am a Bruin fan, but didn't go to UCLA. I'm not a Trojan hater...just more of a UC fan.

Well at least your not a trojan fan though. :eek: haha Boomer Sooner here :).

SC^SoCal
05-14-2009, 04:39 PM
Dude...just saw that you are in Torrance. You are welcome to come over and look at it in person... even though you are a Trojan. :)

Thanks Curtis! But I did decide to go with dual f12s. However, my receiver has only one output so I will need to get a splitter. Is this the one?

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/USCRxE39/3261.jpg

Can the sub signal be split and then split again to have a L and R connection on each sub? Or is it unnecessary?

I ask this because I have read that by having a dual connection to the sub, one can increase output over just a single connection.

Thanks.

Trojans under fire again. :(

curtis
05-14-2009, 04:52 PM
You only need to split it once, and that piece will do the job.

Looks like Trojan Men's basketball is in trouble.

SC^SoCal
05-20-2009, 10:52 PM
You only need to split it once, and that piece will do the job.

I was experimenting with the splitter above and decided to hook up 2 inputs into one f12. This allowed me to turn the gain down from 2 o'clock to 12 o'clock. Does this happen with all subs? Does it matter? Thanks.

BTW, great Cleveland-Orlando game tonight.

curtis
05-20-2009, 11:33 PM
Nope...it doesn't matter.

SC^SoCal
01-03-2010, 08:25 PM
Happy New Year!

It's been awhile since I've posted here. I guess I've been too busy enjoying my HT.:D I do have some questions for the HT gurus. I don't know what it is but I just noticed that the output of my two f12s seems to have decreased in proportion to my other speakers. In some scenes I can barely hear the bass like I did before.:confused: I tried Audyssey, but it didn't do the trick. I even tried to turn the freq knob all the way up. Therefore, I want to manually increase the sub level in proportion to my other speakers using the receiver or a setting on the f12s. What are some ways to do this? I am seated 14 ft away from my HT. I have all speakers set to small and I have put the distance setting of the front speakers to 10ft and the sub to 30. I have also increased the sub output on the receiver to LFE and +15db. They sound louder, but not quite like I want it. Am I asking too much from them?

My system still consists of Definitive 5.0 + two f12s driven by a Denon 2809. I am using a splitter to the two f12s. I have the freq settings at 14/high damping and the gain is usually @ 2-3 o'clock. I also added a ground loop isolator to my cable line if that matters.

RythmikAudio
01-04-2010, 11:23 PM
...I have all speakers set to small and I have put the distance setting of the front speakers to 10ft and the sub to 30.....

It is not normal that you need to set the subwoofer distance 20ft more than front speakers. Do you really place the subwoofer 20ft further than the fronts? To get the best phase alignment, we recommend to set subwoofer 2-4 ft further than the physical distance.

SC^SoCal
01-05-2010, 04:10 AM
My tower speakers and subs are set up 14 ft from my listening area. However, the sound coming from the towers overpowers my 2 rythmik subs easily. I want to increase the presence of the subs in proportion to the towers. I can turn the gain on both subs to full and it still is not enough.
I am trying to get some tips on how to use my receiver in order to increase the sub output. Or maybe it is not possible with this receiver. Is there a setting on the sub that I can mess with?

I have one sub cable from my Denon that I have split to the two subs. In order to get the output of the subs close to what I want, I have to set the receiver up so that the distance is 10ft for my towers and 30 ft for my sub. I also set the sub gain to +15db. It makes the subs more noticeable, but not quite what I want. Any suggestions on what I could be missing, if anything?

I had an old Sony sub that came in a HTIB. With that sub, I knew that if I went up enough that I could eventually blow out the sub. I could not blow out these subs even if I tried. I can turn the gain all the way up and I have. Is that how direct servo works?

I know that I have a lot to learn about HT. Thanks for reading.

curtis
01-05-2010, 10:07 AM
Have you taken SPL measurements from all channels in your system?

RicardoJoa
01-05-2010, 02:17 PM
Just a thought, could be that u are having phase problem on the sub?


My tower speakers and subs are set up 14 ft from my listening area. However, the sound coming from the towers overpowers my 2 rythmik subs easily. I want to increase the presence of the subs in proportion to the towers. I can turn the gain on both subs to full and it still is not enough.
I am trying to get some tips on how to use my receiver in order to increase the sub output. Or maybe it is not possible with this receiver. Is there a setting on the sub that I can mess with?

I have one sub cable from my Denon that I have split to the two subs. In order to get the output of the subs close to what I want, I have to set the receiver up so that the distance is 10ft for my towers and 30 ft for my sub. I also set the sub gain to +15db. It makes the subs more noticeable, but not quite what I want. Any suggestions on what I could be missing, if anything?

I had an old Sony sub that came in a HTIB. With that sub, I knew that if I went up enough that I could eventually blow out the sub. I could not blow out these subs even if I tried. I can turn the gain all the way up and I have. Is that how direct servo works?

I know that I have a lot to learn about HT. Thanks for reading.

RythmikAudio
01-05-2010, 10:24 PM
Let us start with the AVR. Can you check the speaker configuration menu and let us know how you set it up there? Are all front, center, surround set to "small" and subwoofer "on"? What crossover frequency have you selected?

SC^SoCal
01-06-2010, 07:38 AM
Let us start with the AVR. Can you check the speaker configuration menu and let us know how you set it up there? Are all front, center, surround set to "small" and subwoofer "on"? What crossover frequency have you selected?

All speakers are set to small.
SW yes
SW mode LFE

x-over
F 60
C 40
S 80
LFE 80

While checking these values, I noticed that the meq xt, dynamic vol, and dynamic eq were set to on. I turned these effects off and the sound improved tremendously. :rolleyes:


Have you taken SPL measurements from all channels in your system?

No. I just tried audyssey. I bought the Radio Shack SPL meter awhile back, but I don't really know how to use it. :( I think there was a tutorial somewhere?

RythmikAudio
01-06-2010, 08:42 AM
All speakers are set to small.
SW yes
SW mode LFE

x-over
F 60
C 40
S 80
LFE 80

While checking these values, I noticed that the meq xt, dynamic vol, and dynamic eq were set to on. I turned these effects off and the sound improved tremendously. :rolleyes:



This is good. Try set every xover to 80hz and distance according to actual physical distance, and then add 2 ft to subwoofer and try Audyssey again.

monomer
01-06-2010, 11:30 AM
Never just crank any electronic device to its maximum, it will not perform as it should as it usually just increases distortion and in some cases can cause some self-destruction.

Instead try this. Turn OFF Audyssey in the receiver and zero all the speaker levels. Next set the sub's gain for somewhere around 10 o'clock. Turn the phase to 0 and set the cross-over to 120. Now play the receiver's pink noise test tone for the sub. With your RS SPL meter set to "C weight", "Slow", and the dial on 80, adjust the sub's calibration level within the receiver's menu 'til the meter is reading around 75. If the sub's dB level setting (in the receiver) is greater than +5dB then turn the sub's gain control clockwise (increase), conversely if the level setting is below -5dB then turn the sub's gain counter-clockwise (decrease). Repeat this procedure again with the meter reading and re-adjust the receiver's sub calibration level adjustment to get the SPL to again read approximately 75dB when using the receiver's pink noise. Repeat another iteration if necessary... soon you will have the sub's output SPL at the listening position reading 75dB with the receiver's sub calibration level setting somewhere between -5dB and +5dB... the sub's gain control is finally set in the 'ballpark', this is where you want to begin. At this point go ahead and run Audyssey... importantly it will determine for the system the proper distance/phasing between speakers and sub. Once you've run Audyssey, turn the EQ OFF or change from Audyssey to flat depending upon what your receiver's options allow for. Now download some test tone sweeps off the Internet and play it back in an endless loop. For now, you are only interested in the freq region from 20Hz up to around 160Hz. From your listening spot what you are listening for are what's called nulls. These are obvious dips in the sound level... you don't want these. (Alternately you can view your SPL meter reading continuously to verify what you are hearing). The significance of identifying these nulls becomes apparent once you understand that nulls cannot be improved much (made louder) by boosting and therefore the only way to counter-act these nulls (bring the sound level in this region up) is by relocating the sub's position. This is why positioning of both sub and listener is so important to getting a smooth freq response across the whole bass freq response band. If you have serious nulls present, you will notice the bass just doesn't sound right as 'something' just sounds like its missing and so you will try to counter-act this by boosting the volume (either the gain on the sub or at the receiver or both) but still the nulls will remain essentially unaffected while everything else gets pushed up into major distortion or worse. I believe this is your situation as you are attempting to fight the nulls with gain rather than 're-adjusting' the sub's location. Continue seeking a position for your sub that minimizes the bass frequency nulls. You will not find a position totally free of all nulls, so instead seek a place where any nulls you hear are 'shallow' as these can be helped somewhat by EQ boosting (the job of Audyssey). Under no circumstances can you allow complete or nearly complete nulls to exist... this is where the volume drops to nearly inaudible within the null's freq band... no amount of boost will have any effect on these. Once you've determine the best sub location within the room with respect to minimizing nulls THEN re-run Audyssey and I'll bet you'll be quite pleased with the final results. Do it and post back with your thoughts, impressions, and results.

indulger
01-06-2010, 05:39 PM
Make that a sticky. It's gonna be about 3-4 months before I can get my new sub and I'm gonna forget where I read this thread. Great info Monomer!

davef
01-08-2010, 01:03 AM
Make that a sticky. It's gonna be about 3-4 months before I can get my new sub and I'm gonna forget where I read this thread. Great info Monomer!

Agreed!! Wonderful post Monomer. Thank you!