PDA

View Full Version : Keeping the Rythmik 15" from getting away



stevec
04-09-2009, 11:14 AM
I have just had everything hooked up for a couple of days. I still am trying all the sound options. The Sierras are a delight on my ears. I really haven't had a "score" to test the 340s as side and back channels, but when they do fire, they are clean.

I am having one issue though.. That is my Rythmik sub wants to slide across the wood floor; perhaps it wants to escape? This was especially evident when I played Lord of the Rings Twin Towers, the opening scene.. When Gandalf defends his buds against Balrog. WOW! This is awesome! So powerful, yet so crisp. Anyways, it highlighted a flaw in my system layout (the sub is in the middle below the center, equipment shelves (floatibng left and right) and main speakers outside left and right); that flaw is that the sub will actually move (slide) on the wood floor. This is no good.. I can't have it sliding into my equipment, or out the door. I need some way to contain the beast. Any suggestions?


Thanks,
Steve

BTW.. Brian was so right about Kung Fu Panda on Blu-Ray.. A great movie to listen to your system...

curtis
04-09-2009, 12:02 PM
I would suggest going to hardware store and picking up some carpet grip to put under the sub. It is rubber matting to keep area rugs from slipping. I am assuming you have a F15.

stevec
04-09-2009, 12:11 PM
Thanks for the idea.. Actually I have one of those under the living room area rug. Iwill trim a piece and see how that works... It is the D15SE.. And I think that may be why it slides, the glossy finish.
steve

RDP
04-09-2009, 06:06 PM
Can you give me some set up tips on the Rythmic. I have no output. I cannot tell the difference from my Sierras and the Rythmic sub? I have 5 matching Sierra's and a new Rthmic 15" sub. I have used the HT set up guide from Brian, but I still do not have the output?

curtis
04-09-2009, 07:06 PM
Can you give me some set up tips on the Rythmic. I have no output. I cannot tell the difference from my Sierras and the Rythmic sub? I have 5 matching Sierra's and a new Rthmic 15" sub. I have used the HT set up guide from Brian, but I still do not have the output?
You have no output at all? Can you tell us how it is hooked up and the settings on your receiver/pre-pro?

RDP
04-10-2009, 01:33 AM
Yes I have output but it is so small that I cannot tell the difference between the Sierra's and the Rythmic? There is no big punch to dvd scenes that I have experieced with prior smaller subs. Honestly I believe that if I turned off the sub I would never notice any change.

RDP
04-10-2009, 01:38 AM
I used Auddssey to calibrate the setup. At first when it test toned the sub it was so quiet that it went through the cycle twice and it never reconized the tone. I beleive Auddssey said too much amberiant noise? The only thing running in the house was the refriderator. Anyway I turned the level dial on sub to max...Auddssey then picked it up, but it was still a small tone.

stevec
04-10-2009, 02:03 AM
Hi. I set up mine using audessey the first time (actually twice) as well. And the test tone sent to the sub was very low also (almost indiscernable). When Audessey was done it recommended crossovers of 50 - 60 one time and fullrange the other. I went back and changed those crossovers to THX specs; 80 for everything: center, mains, sides and back surrounds. If you haven't, you may want to check that.

FYI. I have a Onkyo 806 so if you have that one, you get to the speaker settings from the Setup menu.

I hope this helps. I am sure it is a config issue..When you get it right.. you will know.. this sub is spectacular!

steve
:D

RDP
04-10-2009, 08:05 AM
Thanks for the reply. I have the Onkyo 706 so we should be the same except for watts per channel. I do have my settings in receiver set to 80 hz for all five Sierra's and the rythmic sub is set at 80 hz also. I set the sub up as Brian suggest in one of the links that someone posted for HT. But I have watched Transformers and Spiderman 3 and there is no difference in bass, the Sierra's and Rythmic sound the same very matched and even. Is this what it suppose to do? Or perhaps no bass is produced low enough for the Rythmic to kick in and give the big punch? I had a Klip.....12" sub and when special effect scenes played this particular sub would almost move furniture, it had a lot of impact. Like a thunderstorm it would sound like lightening hit my house, my dogs would run out the pet door. I would think that the Rythmic would do the same, but have more accurate sound?

curtis
04-10-2009, 08:15 AM
Are you saying the actual crossover on the sub amp is set to 80hz? If so, you need to turn that to its highest setting, and re-run Audessy.

RDP
04-10-2009, 08:30 AM
Yes the setting for crossover on the plate amp is at 80-90 hz. Is this my problem? Can you reply also to my previous comments, thanks Curtis. I feel like Dave is extremely busy and I hate to interupt him with my tech.. questions. Im hopeing that this is just a setup issue. I will run Auddssey again with youre reccomendations, I am listing my house today so I will get back to the forum in a little while.

RythmikAudio
04-10-2009, 08:41 AM
I am not familiar with Onkyo receivers. I do have a couple of questions:
1) Is it possible to set the level of each channel manually, instead of using Audyssey?
2) Since there is a microphone being used, can one display the frequency response on the screen?
3) Rex told me the Audyssey sets the sub level to -12db which means Audyssey thinks the sub is too hot, am I correct to assume that?

The other way to debug it is using SPL meter with test CD of warble tones.

Brian

RythmikAudio
04-10-2009, 08:46 AM
I would suggest going to hardware store and picking up some carpet grip to put under the sub. It is rubber matting to keep area rugs from slipping. I am assuming you have a F15.

Sometimes I use those clear square rubber pads (3/4" squares) from hardware store. It is a bit sticky under heavy objects. I do remember one time I notice discoloration on my wood desktop after 1 year. I am not sure if it is because the rubber square, or it is because the reaction between the rubber square and the coating of the desk. Maybe others can chime in too.

curtis
04-10-2009, 09:30 AM
Yes the setting for crossover on the plate amp is at 80-90 hz. Is this my problem? Can you reply also to my previous comments, thanks Curtis. I feel like Dave is extremely busy and I hate to interupt him with my tech.. questions. Im hopeing that this is just a setup issue. I will run Auddssey again with youre reccomendations, I am listing my house today so I will get back to the forum in a little while.
I am answering what I can...but yes, since you are using the crossover on the receiver, you need to get the crossover on the sub amp out of the way, so turn that to the maximum clockwise.

Before re-running Audessey, I would also set the volume on the sub amp to halfway.

Looks like you have Brian's attention now too.

RDP
04-10-2009, 10:22 AM
It seemed to help some....I noticed it change the sub settings from -11.5 hz to -1.5 hz. Auddssey sets the mains to full range and the surrounds to 40hz. I switched back to 80hz on all five Sierra's. But I still wasnt getting the output with the level setting at 12:00 so I turned it clockwise to max, it sounds better but I still dont think it has the output that it should? I still have the setting on the plate amp as indicated 14hz w/high damping. I noticed it states to get more output set at 28hz with damping at low, but you loose bass extension. Maybe I should not compare it to the Klip...12" sub, or should I?

curtis
04-10-2009, 10:54 AM
It seemed to help some....I noticed it change the sub settings from -11.5 hz to -1.5 hz. Auddssey sets the mains to full range and the surrounds to 40hz. I switched back to 80hz on all five Sierra's. But I still wasnt getting the output with the level setting at 12:00 so I turned it clockwise to max, it sounds better but I still dont think it has the output that it should? I still have the setting on the plate amp as indicated 14hz w/high damping. I noticed it states to get more output set at 28hz with damping at low, but you loose bass extension. Maybe I should not compare it to the Klip...12" sub, or should I?
If Audessey set the speakers to large, you should set them to small.

The sub amp should not be set to max.

Are you using the PEQ?

RDP
04-10-2009, 12:52 PM
I have never understood large or small speaker setup. Addsssey sets up in hz only. Auddsey setup was full range, I changed them to 80hz. No I am not using peq......Brian's link to HT recccomended the switch off. I turned the level back to 3:00 now playing Transformer dvd again and it seems to be getting better. Thanks again Curtis for helping me. I feel better now that Im getting some better bass output, the o'l sick feeling is started to depart from me. Ive been building a HT since Christmas..........now my house will probaly sell and I will box everything up and who knows when I will enjoy this system again??????

curtis
04-10-2009, 12:55 PM
glad it is getting better.

I am not sure how the Onkyo setup works, so perhaps someone that has one can help you more thoroughly.

TooManyHobbies
04-10-2009, 07:00 PM
From some past reading I've done in the AVS Forum, Audyssey in the Onkyo receivers seems to have a hard time adjusting sub levels. It seems to have a tendency to turn the sub level all the way down, and reports of crossover settings also seem odd. I'd try a manual setup, but not owning a Onkyo receiver, I don't know how to describe doing that. It probably also requires an SPL meter which I happen to own already. I have the F15, and you will definitely notice the difference once the sub level is adjusted properly.

Bill

RDP
04-11-2009, 05:40 AM
Hi TMH...can you give me some intial settings that you have dialed in on youre rythmic for ht/audio? Since you own a spl meter once you have set the sub settings what are those settings when you switch from ht to audio? Thanks Iam very new with this termonology and in need for lay terms. Iam a little discouraged that you have to read forums, and ask for help, and reply to emails, to try to work through the in and outs on this sub. I can understand someone who has went through the learning curve, but to the average or new customer it is very overwhelming.I just need someone who owns a Onkyo 706/Serria's, and Ryhtmic 15" sub to give me basic settings for ht/audio. And I can tweak these settings down the road as I learn more, thanks so much for youre replys.

gkb5
04-11-2009, 06:45 AM
RDP-

I had a similar issue when I first received my sub. My issue was the level on the amp. I had it all the way to the left (min). Try turning the level up if it is not already all the way to the right.

RDP
04-11-2009, 08:04 AM
Curtis has resolved the issue. I had the crossover set at 80hz in my receiver and 80-90hz on the plate amp on sub.I turned the plate amp clockwise to max 120hz., and ran Audyssey again. The bass came alive...as Dave says: enjoying the sound !!! I tell you these FIVE SIERRA"S and this 15" RYTHMIC SUB sounds perfect in multichannel audio w/Alison Krauss. Im still waiting to get some input on basic settings for HT/Audio. I may post some pictures latter with these matching Sierra's on five matching TP-24 stands. I know it was probaly a over kill w/Sierra's for rear surrounds....but it sure looks good with everything matching. And the sound....nobody can go wrong, trust me. I play acoustic doghouse bass, and bluegrass fiddle. These speakers to my ears reproduce a matching acoustic tone.

RythmikAudio
04-11-2009, 08:11 AM
Good work everyone. I am glad it got resolved this fast.

RDP
04-11-2009, 08:22 AM
Thanks Brian for everything, my highest recommendations to you, and youre product !!! Rex. Anybody living in NC would like to demo this setup is most welcome...but hurry before my house sells?

curtis
04-11-2009, 10:25 AM
Yipee! Glad all is good!

TooManyHobbies
04-11-2009, 02:25 PM
Glad to hear the sub level issue is resolved. I don't have all of the same equipment, but I was prepared to study a downloaded copy of the Onkyo owner's manual and provide whatever help I could to resolve this issue. I've had audio, computer, and other hobbies long enough to know how frustrating it is to have a problem that is difficult to resolve. I've solved a few of my own to my satisfaction, and I hate to see anyone having a problem I might be able to help correct. Thankfully, the Internet has brought some additional resources that with a search engine and some patience can usually ferret out enough information for me to get to a solution. Forums, like this one, are a great asset.

Enjoy!

Bill

RDP
04-11-2009, 04:44 PM
Thanks TMH...can you give me some basic settings for Ht/Audio that you use for the plate amp on the rythmic?

TooManyHobbies
04-11-2009, 06:51 PM
RDP, my main speakers are not Sierras and they have 5-6 dB greater sensitivity based on specs. That means I am likely using higher level settings on the plate amp than you will need. My wife and I have a large collection of CDs, over 400, covering multiple music categories and including older releases that were recorded to digital media from analog masters. We have noticed that the older recordings have lower bass levels than later releases, either due to the analog versus digital masters, or, more likely, due to changes in production mixing styles over the years. This effects the desired output level. I also have dual F15 subs. I'll provide my settings, but these differences will very likely mean you will need to adjust the level to your needs.

Starting from the top of the plate amp, here are my current connections and settings. I use Line In. Rythmik states you can use a single channel input, either left or right, but using a y-cable adapter to connect to both input channels provides 6 dB more output. I use a y-cable adapter. Next, I have PEQ off. I have not conducted a frequency sweep, but don't notice any uneveness in the bass response, so decided PEQ was not needed. Next is Delay/Phase. My main speakers sit on top of my subs, so there is no need for phase delay, and I have that set to zero. You will likely have a different setup, and if the sub is located away from your main speakers, you will need some phase adjustment. Rythmik provides a very good article on Rythmikaudio.com on how to do this using the delay settings in your receiver to achieve the required phase delay. You should locate that article, read it carefully, and perform the adjustment in your receiver setup (I'll help if you run into problems). Brian Ding (RythmikAudio on this forum) has answered questions and elaborated on this phase adjustment method in other posts on this forum. It's an excellent technique that I have suggested to users of other sub brands. Phase delay adjustment is essential to getting good music sound quality with a main speaker plus sub setup. Next, Crossover is set to the max setting, 120 Hz. I set the crossover frequency in my pre/pro. For Level, I currently am using between 3/4 max and maximum. Curtis suggested half-way for a setup with Sierras, and that seems reasonable. This is a way to adjust the bass output to your liking. If the bass seems weak, increase the level adjustment. Meeting your desires for bass is, IMHO, far more important than whether your sub output is exactly equal to your main speakers. Start at half-way, and if that seems too little or much to you, don't be afraid to adjust the level control. I can't comment on how using a high level setting will effect the maximum sound level from the sub, but so far my setup has provided all the output we need even for movies. Since I'm using Line In, I do not use High Level In. Next, Subwoofer Low Pass is set to EXT/12 (middle switch position). Since you set your crossover frequency in your receiver, you'll use the same. The other settings are for using the plate amps crossover. Rumble Filter is Off/1 (switch down). This is a personal preference, but my system has no known sources of rumble (like a turntable), and I don't play the system at high volume where damage to the sub might occur if some subsonic rumble did find it's way into the system. You can choose to set Rumble Filter On/2, and I doubt you will notice any sonic impact. Next, Extension Filter Freq is set to 14 (switch in uppermost position). This was the way the sub was set when received, and I left it there. This sets the low frequency rolloff to 14 Hz. The drawback to this setting is that it cuts the maximum output of the sub, something I have not found to be a problem here. Realistically, most music or movies have little content below 30 Hz. A setting of 20 is probably more than adequate for most everyone, and 14 is overkill, although I have an album with a warning label that states there are frequencies down to 5 Hz on the disk (T-Rex stomping through the woods). A 28 setting provides maximum output if you like really high, house-shaking levels from your sub on movie sound effects. Subs typically are tuned for 28 Hz performance for that reason (max boom/slam). Last, Extension Filter Damping is set to Mid (bottom switch position). According to Rythmik, this equates to a Q of 0.7. This Q is regarded as being maximally flat with greatest bass extension. The sub arrived here set to Damping Hi (middle switch position), a Q of 0.5. This Q is regarded as over-damped, but some people prefer that for really taut bass, and the rolloff is a bit shallower so there may seem to be a bit more low bass. Comparing frequency response curves, I saw no real advantage to the Hi setting, and the Mid setting gives a dB or two more output in the lowest part of the bass response. I could not tell the difference in my listening experience. The third Damping setting, Low (the top switch position), provides a Q of 0.9. This is a slightly under-damped response that causes a peak in the response curve in the 50-60 Hz region that some people like because it gives a "warmer" bass particularly on rock music where it boosts the kick drum and bass guitar. This Q has slightly less bass extension and a sharper rolloff, so is the least suited to low bass, if you like that. I suggest you try the different settings and see which one you like best.

Ok, so there you have it. Sorry for the length of this post. Again, IMHO, the most important settings are the ones you (and your housemate, domestic partner, significant other, or spouse, if that applies) like the best, not the ones the specs say are the best or anyone else says are the best. You can use mine as a starting point, but feel free to experiment to see what you like.

Enjoy!

Bill

RDP
04-12-2009, 05:15 AM
Thanks TMH.....for a extensive breakdown on the subject. I think according to youre summery that I need to adjust the phase switch. My mains are about 8 feet from sub, and about 2 feet from 1rst listening positioning. I will try the 28hz bass ext. for that sonic boom for HT. Also I noticed you have two 15' subs, wow. What are youre main speakers and surrounds. I tell you this is the main reason I purchased the Sierra-1 from Ascend. I was in the market just for HT, but after listening to these speakers in pure audio it made me drag out my cd's and start listening to music more. So I was at the junction again. Well if every review I read suggesting Sierra's in pure audio with no sub at all. Maybe I can get by with a lesser sub for HT? Well thats when I read about Rythmic and Dave suggested that this sub would match the Sierras perfect than any other sub that he has tested. So I went with Dave's reccommendation, I wanted two perfect worlds HT/AUDIO. By georgie I beleive I have it. Have you ever listen to the Sierra's?

rogerm
04-12-2009, 07:08 AM
This is from the Onkyo FAQ set up suggestions on AVS. I use the Onkyo 705 as a pre/pro and this might help you. It worked for me. Go into the Onkyo setup and set the subwoofer level to - 3db. Then using your spl meter, adjust the volume level on the sub, using the receiver's test tones until you read 75db at your listening postion. On my Epik sub that was between 10 and 11 on the dial. Then run Audyssey. Do measurements from at least 8 postions. After completion make any changes like speakers lg to small, crossover etc. When I did it, Audyssey did not change the -3db setting. I'm assuming you do have the sub connected to the subwoofer pre/out connection on the receiver.

RDP
04-12-2009, 01:14 PM
Yes I use the pre-amp sub output. I recently moved the sub from 2ft. to aprox 9ft. from my first listening positioning. I ran audyssey again and it changed the settings from -3db to -11.5db. I need to get a SPL meter and try youre suggestions. The sub still sounds great, I had to turn the level to about 2:00 to get a little more output. Before I did all these changes I left the settings the way they were, I moved the sub and added a Y splitter to the right and left input....wow what a huge difference. But now since Audyssey changed the db to -11.5 I dont have the output that I did. I guess I am going to keep tweaking till I fine the sweet spot?

TooManyHobbies
04-12-2009, 04:26 PM
Hi RDP,

I have not personally used Audyssey, but from Forum posts I've seen over at AVS, it seems as though the algorithm Audyssey uses or sensitivity in the hardware causes it to eliminate low frequencies. Bring the sub level up and Audyssey applies a greater level cut so the end result is no bass. Where it's been used with tower main speakers having response into the 30-40 Hz region, it sets the main crossover unusually high apparently to kill the bass. Personally, I'd want my sub set a 0 in the receiver setup and adjust the sub level control (on the plate amp) to balance to my main speakers. I was in the market for new electronics at the time I saw the posts discussing Audyssey setups, and those comments swayed me away from getting a pre/pro with automated equalization. I decided I was not going to ever use it. Now I'm sure there may be automated equalizers that work well, or that ones will eventually be developed that do work well. It's also possible that my opinion of Audyssey is wrong and the comments were wrongly giving me a bad impression of how well it works. But there does seem to be something fundamentally wrong in what it does to the low frequency setup, and in not one but a variety of different rooms and room arrangements at least with the popular Onkyo receivers.

With regard to my speakers, my current system is undergoing an upgrade overhaul. The speakers I'm using are a hodge-podge of units put together on a budget as I transitioned from a stereo only system to home theater in the nineties. They also reflect my preference for large or multiple mid-size woofer drivers. One of the main influences were a set of large, floor-standing main speakers my wife and I particularly liked for music. They were purchased before subwoofers became popular. These had a higher than usual sensitivity, and I attempted to achieve level balance by selecting speakers for the rest of the system that didn't require using large amounts of level compensation in the receiver setup. This created an odd and quite large home theater system that I'm sure would make many audio enthusiasts cringe, but it did satisfy us and impressed visitors that experienced our system. Considering that this system was driven by a Pioneer Elite receiver with modest power output, the high sensitivity of the speakers allowed us to easily shake the house during movies. At the time, we lived in a larger space, and we could accommodate the size. Two moves later, a smaller house, more knowledge about speaker systems, and motivation to replace and upgrade the whole system, I'm currently downsizing to some degree. The large floor-standers are gone, replaced by the F15 subs and larger bookshelf speakers. It's currently an interim setup using speakers I already had while I wait for the chance to buy new speakers for all five channels (currently the room does not lend itself to 7-channel audio, although the new electronics have that capability - and I might try to squeeze it in eventually). I have no doubt the Sierra and other Ascend speakers are all awesome performers, and the CMT-340 is still on my alternate list, but the Ascend speakers did not meet all of my selection criteria. The Sierra was too small and had insuffcient sensitivity, and the CMT-340 was rejected due to the painted finish. Had I not found some speakers meeting my criteria that had wood-veneer cabinets that my wife really liked, the CMT-340 might have made it into my system. A somewhat lesser criteria that none of the Ascend speakers meet is that I really wanted to use closed-box design speakers in my new setup. I've mostly had ported speakers and want to try closed-box. So, I'm an Ascend customer because I bought Rythmik Audio subs, but there are no plans at this time to include Ascend speakers in the rest of the system. I don't want anyone to take this to mean I don't think Ascend makes wonderful speakers. I do. I may regret my current choices and sometime down the road come back to Ascends. It's just that right now I have certain criteria I want to meet in my new system that the Ascend line was not quite right for, but sound quality was not one of them.

The Sierra has a lot going for it, and I'm glad you like them in your system. The Rythmik subs are fantastic. They are a great compliment to any quality audio system both for music and movies. Be patient working through the setup and I know you will not be disappointed.

Enjoy!

Bill

RDP
04-12-2009, 04:42 PM
Good hearing from you again TMH.....I hope you will be able to hear the Sierra's one day. I think the bamboo cabinet made a huge difference in the sound. Bye for now.