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oontahey
02-03-2004, 06:27 AM
I thought it was funny. Relax everyone this is the interrant, nobody needs to take their ball and go home. I am about to order some Ascends...where can I get the cable forged in Mt. Doom? I gotta have that!

Quinn
02-03-2004, 06:28 AM
I respect that Curtis shut it down. Why should we have to put up with Rockteer behavior here that has bought at least one forum to lock down all speaker threads. Brad gave two cool it warnings that were ignored including both sides the first time.

azanon
02-03-2004, 06:42 AM
I was speaking in general terms, not really targetting anyone. Then Heretic goes and flames me, the flame gets to stand, and I get no rebuttal? I think not. Bye!

oontahey
02-03-2004, 07:10 AM
It's just that why lock a thread? (Not just here, anywhere) I can see REMOVING a thread if it is that offensive to people but to lock it? It's still there is it not? But I don't really know what I am talking about...haven't for years.

hectic1
02-03-2004, 07:15 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by azanon

I was speaking in general terms, not really targetting anyone. Then Heretic goes and flames me, the flame gets to stand, and I get no rebuttal? I think not. Bye!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Actually it's hectic1...but who's asking anyway...I'm not quite sure how I "flamed" you though...I simply asked if you had experience in measuring speakers. You thought it would be funny to post some "hilarious" response to egg on someone that obviously has no idea what they are talking about to elicit a response...well I gave you one.[:o)]

Ben_Wood
02-03-2004, 07:58 AM
Like Rodney K. said, "can't we all just get along?".

BradJudy
02-03-2004, 08:43 AM
Bradley,

While I normally greatly appreciate humor (if you met me you'd know), there's a time and place for it and humurous mocking of another company when tensions are a bit high and there is already discussion of 'bashing' probably isn't the best time. That said, I think locking has more to do with the fact that not all of the comments in the thread seemed to be good natured and certainly weren't seen as good natured.

I wouldn't want to see you go and I hope you can see my point of view. We've certainly had lots of great discussion on this forum and I hope to see a lot more.

As for 'why lock?', it's an online forum method of behavior modification - no two ways about it. It isn't about removing offensive statements, but about slapping people on the wrist when things get out of hand. Of course I didn't lock it, so you'd have to ask curtis about his exact reason.

curtis
02-03-2004, 09:17 AM
Thanks for the lead in Brad.

I locked it for that very reason....there is no need to mock the other companies methods. We may not agree with them and we can certainly discuss them with out mocking. A good natured discussion is much more appropriate.

With good discussions we may be able to learn more, and ask more questions.

Perhaps a warning or two from me would have been more appropriate, but I was busy doing my departmental budget, and ofcourse trying to read the posts on both threads. I am hoping my budget does not get kicked back to me.

Brad, thanks for trying to keep order.

If you guys want to keep questioning me, go right ahead, I do not have much to do tonight.

-curtis

Lou-the-dog
02-03-2004, 10:25 AM
It's been quite some time since I've had much time to devote to our audio hobby ( since college and now I'm 44). My business has kept me away from many hobbies unfortunately. With a desire to find a high quality and affordable system I went to the internet to find as much info as possible. While I don't approve of outright bashing of ones personal tastes in audio I did enjoy the somewhat satirical comments of Azanon and Jake. I didn't feel the intentions were to offend anyone (or company) in particular but were humorously pointing out the exact same thing that came to mind when I investigated the Rocket line- that there was an overwhelming desire by the Rocket followers to convince the auditioning customer that there was something wrong with him-his room-his equipment-his emotions-the phase of the moon etc. For a relative newbie this is quite obvious- (I am qualified to make this statement!) One thing that I have gleaned from all the surfing I have done before I purchased my Ascends is that all speakers have their own signature and I beleive that the Ascend followers, this Forum and the Ascend Company itself has done an excellent job in communicating this. With the accurate opinions conveyed to me thru the various forums I felt that on order day that I knew exactly what my new speakers would sound like. I didn't want or have time for alot of tweaking and/or additional purchases to make "me" happy. That is what won me over to the Ascend line (and am grinning ear to ear as I listen to them at this very moment!) I expected excellent results when I first hooked up the cables- and I definately got it. Plug and Play- no surprises! In closing I think that the folks from Ascend, the Ascend Forum and the Ascend consumers deserve to be able to "puff their chest" now and then for being associated with a product that delivers such incredible perfomance.

Randy

curtis
02-03-2004, 11:17 AM
http://www.ascendforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=306

-curtis

azanon
02-03-2004, 11:31 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Actually it's hectic1...but who's asking anyway...I'm not quite sure how I "flamed" you though...I simply asked if you had experience in measuring speakers. You thought it would be funny to post some "hilarious" response to egg on someone that obviously has no idea what they are talking about to elicit a response...well I gave you one<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
No you have no idea what you're talking about. I assumed an average level of intelligence here, but that clearly was not applicable to you. My point was, my Ascends sounded wonderful right out of the box. No alignment with the planets was necessary. Oh sure, i had some issues with my receiver, and some rear speaker mounts, but that had nothing to do with the Ascends. An indirect conclusion both Jake and I came to from MLS's response in that other thread was, that's not necessarily the case with the RS750s. I'm sorry on your behalf you obviously missed the point, and the humor.

And I dont give a rats ass what your name is, evidenced by my mispelling it.

To the mods: Heretic got two shots at me now. That's my only and final one.

azanon
02-03-2004, 11:39 AM
bradjudy/curtis,

You guys have been respectful from beginning to end, no problem there. Probably the thing I find most enjoyable on forums is the ability to debate with such large #'s of like-minded people. Naturally, there's some heat that goes with them from time to time. AVS Inc/av123 seems to be taking a rather laid back approach to it (they'll close a thread, but it takes a lot), you guys, including David, wanna keep it quite a bit tighter. I prefer the former. No harm, no foul. Not every messageboard is for everyone.

David, I dont think a competition, in any form, necessitates a wedge between you, MLS, and/or whomever else. I tend to suscribe to your former explanation a week or so back, which explained that your relationship and/or coexistences are mutually beneficial. I truly believe that, per your detailed explanation to that effect (which i'll not repost). I sort of envisied you two guys laughing about this at a bar somewhere thinking how great business is per you guys wonderful products; 100s of folks fighting over which of your speakers they'll buy. It ends in one of your speakers being purchased! And hey - I dont blame them! I'm a believer!

I guess some might be turned off by an associated, aggressive messageboard. I just wanted the best speaker for the money though :-).

But for the record, getting flamed doesnt bother me. I certainly ask for it at times. But not being able to respond? Now, THAT does.

Azanon

BradJudy
02-03-2004, 11:59 AM
Azanon - Locks fall where they fall, otherwise threads would just keep spiraling as everyone got in their 'last words'. Someone is always going to get in before it and others won't. If you feel the need for more words after a lock, I think it's best to take it offline into PMs or e-mails. A lock demonstrates that a moderator doesn't want the conversation to continue and you said you respected that in your openning post of this thread. I appreciate that even though I'm not a moderator.

azanon
02-03-2004, 12:04 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If you feel the need for more words after a lock, I think it's best to take it offline into PMs or e-mails<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I realize its luck of the draw, my main complaint was the "early trigger" (see the title). To your second comment, you do recognize the inadequacy of a public shot see by all, merely countered with a private email right? Not exactly fair.

hectic1
02-03-2004, 12:28 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by azanon

[quote]
No you have no idea what you're talking about. I assumed an average level of intelligence here, but that clearly was not applicable to you. My point was, my Ascends sounded wonderful right out of the box. No alignment with the planets was necessary. Oh sure, i had some issues with my receiver, and some rear speaker mounts, but that had nothing to do with the Ascends. An indirect conclusion both Jake and I came to from MLS's response in that other thread was, that's not necessarily the case with the RS750s. I'm sorry on your behalf you obviously missed the point, and the humor.

And I dont give a rats ass what your name is, evidenced by my mispelling it.

To the mods: Heretic got two shots at me now. That's my only and final one.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

azanon, I'm not quite sure what your issue is as I haven't taken any "shots" at you here. Why don't you take a moment and go back and read my post again...Look at who is the one personally attacking people around here. I evidentally have no idea what I'm talking about huh? I'll ask you again, do you have experience measuring speakers? Do you have experience with Rockets? I feel that most speaker will sound better after break in and proper positioning...would you agree? I have NEVER had an issue getting my Rockets dialed in...Have you and Jake also come to the conclusion that Ascend speakers would never need to be positioned properly to sound good? HHMM, you admitt that you were making fun of Rockets?

Evidenally you don't care what my name is as you have no respect for people.

To the mods, azanon has taken 2 shots at me!!![:X]

azanon
02-03-2004, 12:47 PM
That was my first response to you hectic. My original posts were regarding MLS's post. If you made a similar post, i was completely unaware.

hectic, you've taken this so far offbase, i'm not going to continue. Again, jake and i were just poking fun at all the apparent adjustments that are needed for a fair rs750 comparison. The reviewer didnt do anything special to the 170s either, but they "won". I'm not suggesting modifications/adjustments arn't helpful for the 170s too. But what I am saying is, cbm170s sound superb right out of the box. That's it. Nothing more.

It was intended as a joke, and definitely was not targeted at you,..... not the post in the other thread anyway. Sorry if it offended you dude, but you clearly attacked me twice prior to me responding to you once. Re your name: You brought that on by pettily correcting me. Ask and ye shall receive, dude.

Lets quit this, eh hectic?

hectic1
02-03-2004, 01:01 PM
azanon, whether I made the post or MLS made the post shouldn't matter. The simple fact is that ALL speaker will benefit from proper placement...

I have no doubts that Ascends are superb right out of the box and you have never seen me say that they aren't. I understand that Ascends, Rockets, Klipsch, etc all will have a different sound and there is no "perfect" sound for everyone. I was simply posting here to give you guys all the information as I was the person that Mike was working with on getting both the ROCKETS and ASCEND speakers dialed in.

I'm cool with you as all I want at the end of the day is for Mike to find the right speaker for him whether that be Ascend, Rocket, or whatever...[8D]

Have a good night...

respectfully,

Bob

Quinn
02-03-2004, 01:05 PM
Maybe it is time to re-post this post I made a month ago on another thread about a review on audioreview-

1/10/04
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Quinn

While, Mad Dog's fevor towards all things Onix/Rockets has IMO increased. I really doubt he would do such a thing. He frequently posts that the Ascend 170s are a great value. Now as for someone cutting and pasting from one of his posts is quite possible.

Your feelings toward Mad Dog reminds me of some emails Curtis and I traded right before Smokey with Curtis' assistance got this forum on-line. Those e-mails were how to keep this place and our posts on other boards helpful and informative regarding Ascend w/o creating any backlash like the Rockets' crowds have done a number of times.

If you were reading AVSforum previous to about six months ago you likely saw how much time MLS of AV123 spent defending positions that Rocket-heads had put him in. Also, the number of threads locked down because of the firestorm that occurred anytime a poster questioned a Rockets product or MLS was pretty high. I personally think the av123 forum came about because it was easier for MLS to give the Rocket/Onix/Perpetual Technologies fans a place to post and pat each on the back w/o causing an uproar on one the boards, then it was for him to spend so much time defending himself and his products on other boards. Again, these were positions that Rocket fans had managed to put him in not anything he'd done himself. Avsforum was the second home of the Rocketeers. I believe they,the rocket crowd, settled in there after getting tired of the hostilities at Harmonic Discord after much of the same stuff.

It was not all their fault but how you respond to trolls, and there were many, effects perception of the company in addition to the poster.

And now I can't stand to go on av123 community and only do so to checkout a post referenced from another board. I still have a negative view of the Rocketeers to this day and am so sick of them I'll likely never buy an av123 product. BTW-- I do recommend the ELT to those whose parameters it fits. I can also vouch for the great CS at av123 as I bought speaker cable from there before I got sick of it all.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


The main point is how you respond to trolls(and those with a different opinion)has an effect on how people perceive the product and company as well as how they perceive the poster.

I guess I need to look at myself because I don't always walk the walk about this.

azanon
02-03-2004, 01:16 PM
Bob,

I'm probably too lazy to go back and look at MLS's first response to "santaeruza". But just going on recollection, i recalled it being much more than just placement issues; it was a bunch of complicated stuff, at least for layfolks like me, as well as some expensive equipment that was needed. Just FYI, my Ascends came with a very basic guidebook that included proper spacing, proper height, and suggested toeing. I did that stuff, and i'm sure santa did that with the rs750s as well.

So i'm admitting to you what you're saying; I'm not an expert when it comes to complicated audio adjustments. As a consumer that just wants great, affordable speakers, i needed a super product that would function as it was intended with just basic, anyone-can-do-it, adjustments. That's all my 170s got. Thanks to clutchbrake, they were balanced by an SPL meter as well. Certainly appreciated, but the 170s sounded great before the SPL meter too. My sub benefited the most from the SPL meter anyway, not the 170s.

Bradley

jake
02-03-2004, 01:37 PM
Heredity57...settle down. You made the first jab at azanon...go back and read it. There's no question.

Also, Azanon's and my posts do NOT blatantly bash the Rockets. They are taking a humorous stance at what we've observed on the Rocket Forum.

Why the big reaction? Because the posts have a lot of truth in them.
The truth hurts doesn't it?

I mean c'mon...selling a $1500 "tuning" software for a speaker that only costs $1400? Who the heck in their right mind would buy that? I can see if the speakers costs $40,000 that maybe it would justify the costs, but $100 more than the speakers?
Another thing...SPEAKER STANDS...FOR TOWERS. Hullo? Made by the manufacturer no doubt.
All these little side items being sold for the 750 can only mean one thing...even av123 knows the sound is lacking...bigtime.

I thought our posts were pretty funny. Even the church of AV123 followers must have found some humor in it.

Heredity234...go and read the "muffled 750" post on the av123 forum. You'll see some of the crazy suggestions I was getting at in my post.

Quinn
02-03-2004, 01:40 PM
ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jake
02-03-2004, 01:51 PM
Calm down...you don't have to read it.

Sheesh, just having a little fun.
I though the internet was supposed to be fun?

By the way...a new batch of wire just arrived from Mt. Doom.
Lemme know if anyone wants a pair. It won't make a physical difference in your sound, but psychologically it will.

curtis
02-03-2004, 02:06 PM
OK....so I get back from dinner to read this stuff. Lets chill a bit. Tomorrow, like DF suggested in his letter to us, I will create a section for "Humorous Musing" with some kind of disclaimer stating they are only personal opinions and are read at your own risk.......or something like that.

As for wire....I agree, my new speaker cables that I made do not seem to make a difference, but I like they way the look.

-curtis

azanon
02-03-2004, 09:04 PM
My last post was an attempt at closure too, and I felt like Bob and I were getting there. I agree, lets not continue beating this issue anymore.

azanon
02-03-2004, 09:24 PM
Humurous Musings? lol. I think i'll pass. If i get in the mood to rip an individual or company a "new one", i'll go with AVS, Inc. Agree Jake? This is America baby, and i'm all for maximum exposure if I feel convicted enough about something or I think some unfair practices (to consumers) are occurring. This forum has few enough visitors as it is. Besides, arn't we defeating the purpose of that (annoying) disclaimer when you enter the site anyway?

As ive heard MLS say more than once.... you're entitled. Damn straight i am MLS, but thanks for pointing that out anyway :-).

Azanon

Eric D
02-04-2004, 01:50 AM
This post is to Azanon in specific and others in general. To everyone, I’m sorry for the length this grew to – good luck reading it if you choose. Jake the troll: have what fun you will - I will continue to enjoy laughing *at* you.

Azanon, I also like some bite in my humor, but I’d like to share a feeling that’s developed over a few years of living. To ensure the humor is enjoyed I believe you need to make the friend *first* and then make sure they understand when you are using humor. That being said, we are all still human, and make mistakes in what we say and write. Sometimes things need to be retracted if it becomes clear they were misunderstood.

Now to the bulk (and it is bulky) of my message. IMO a lot of misinformation has been stated (mostly by the aforementioned Jake), and many have seen red too much to respond well. Anyway, here’s my rambling take on a lot of the bashing that’s been going on:

I laugh at comparing the CBM-170s to the Rocket 750s. That a comparison would even be interesting shows what value is available with the Ascend monitors. I actually tune that out as the only comparison I’d be interested in would be bookshelf to bookshelf - the 170s vs. 250s, or Onix Ref1 for that matter.

Re speaker measurements: I'm not knowing how the speakers were measured, but it seems obvious to me that if you put the microphone too near to one part of the speaker and some drivers are more distant, that the speakers aren't going to sound "right." The drivers extend a large physical distance on the 750s while the drivers on the 170s are right next to each other.

I'd also guess that one could use the CBM-170s as nearfield monitors and place them near your ears - heck, maybe even strap them onto your ears. The same goes for other bookshelf/monitor speakers (personally, I happen to like headphones - I find them lighter. [:)]) Interestingly, I'd also think that a tower speaker that uses only two drivers could be used that nearfield – it just comes with it’s own stand built in, Ok, maybe the larger enclosure buys you something too. However, the 750s have a driver array, take some space for the soundwaves from the driver array to coalesce. That can be bad for some applications but good for others. What do I get out of the whole discussion: that 750s shouldn’t be used as headphones.

Re SOCS: SOCS is for *any speaker.* It just happens to have been demoed on the 750. Heck, if you want you could use that “$1500 program” for $100 speakers. The interesting question is, is it better to spend $40,000 for speakers, or $100 + $1500. It’s an audiophile question. Without the extra $1500, don’t ask it. It is *not* $1500 more to correct a $1500 mistake.

IMHO, this technology is going to be a lot more widely applied in the future. It’s something to enjoy speculating about as it is only just about to be born. One speculation is that sometime in the future, when you buy your Ascend CBM17,000s and they will come with a little flashcard. You plug that flashcard into your receiver and it will do the correction. My personal hope however is that they will license the full RCS system to receivers, including the MMK programming and coefficient derivation software. It's probably a HTPC thing...

Re cables: Hmmm, Ascend sells speaker cables. Jake's malicious comments could be used there just as well. Why isn’t plain zipcord enough? The same goes for high-end vs. throwaway interconnects – that’s a whole different flame war that will rage forever… It's just brought in here for machine gun effect.

Re 750 stands - I agree with his point, but in no way his phraseology. Interesting also that Ascend has speaker stands for exactly the same price as the Rocket Risers…. In general, I increase the cost of any monitor speaker by the needed price of stands. Maybe the 750s are just monitors with a 4-driver woofer array. (OK, so they still suck for nearfield applications [:)] ).

But I'd like to return to the whole “how to conduct ourselves on these kinds of forums” question. I for one marvel that we get to interact with all levels of people from the audio world on these forums. There are the people creating the products, like Mr. Fabrikant or Mr. Schifter. I am respectful to these people. To me, it’s an amazing opportunity afforded us by the internet - I think it’s a shame to waste it by insulting them. I may have no interest in a micro-cube/bass module Lifestyle system; but I would not treat Omar Amar [:I] **** with anything but respect and I’d be mightily interested in what he had to say.

There are people who’ve spent a lot of time on this hobby – from them I hope to “cheat” and avoid the lessons they may have painfully (expensively?) had to learn. But many of them are highly opinionated. I listen to what they say, try not to insult them, and take what they say as anecdotal. Here, I apply a quote from Dr. Dean Edell: “The plural of anecdote is not data.”

Then are others like me, who want to learn, share a little of what they see, and maybe a little humor. There’s a lot of us out there, some of them pretend to more knowledge than they have. To that end I remember a phrase from a long time ago (I can’t remember the source for it however): “The Internet is an exercise in anarchy.”

Finally, there are those I can’t understand, nor do I enjoy, Here’s a quote from Robert Heinlein from which I derive how I treat them: “Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate–and quickly.”

I am in *no way* advocating any kind of violence. In applying it here, I make major effort trying to understand wherever someone comes from in their writing. If I can’t find any way to read it that makes any kind of sense, or if it seems needlessly malicious – I dismiss it and don’t let it aggravate me.

In *major* risk of being pedantic, I hope this has been helpful. It is my way of trying to give back to the forums that have given so much to me.

enjoy,

Eric

curtis
02-04-2004, 02:31 AM
Eric,

Glad to see you here, and thank you for your thoughts.

You post here and the points you have made or tried to make, will open up more questions and debate.

Yes, Ascend does sell speaker wire, a third party brand. But nowhere on this forum has anyone said "the Ascend speaker wire will make your speakers sound better".

Speaker measurements - Mad Dog posted measurements of the ELT, RS750, and Ref1. His findings were not near the AV123 specs. But, his methods were not questioned. Can you explain to me why? Whose specs are more accurate?

SOCS - What is the claim that it will do? That for $1500, it will make a $1500/pr of speakers sound like a $40,000 pair? There is not even a set release date for this product, yet there are already reviews on how well it performs, and the reviews are not written by a third party. Who is the target audience?

The stands for the Ascend monitors vs Rocket Risers you have shown is not apples to apples. It is implied that monitors should be a certain height, and to achieve this, you place them on something. This is not the case for tower/floorstanding speakers. The RS750 is sold as a floorstanding speaker. Or are you implying misinformation? The very notion of Rocket Risers implies that "we know that enough of you will need to raise the speaker to make it sound better, so we offer the risers".



-curtis

Eric D
02-04-2004, 03:11 AM
Cables: best to say I'm a wire agnostic and leave it at that. I've had my poor RatShack interconnects publically "dissed" before.

Speaker measurement: I'm only replying to Jake's tirade, which I was I believe about the measurements taken at the Oregon speaker mfr location. Please *do* question MD's methods - heck, I question them; and I question Tom Nousaine's methods with subwoofers for that matter. I also question Sterrophiles objectivity. There's all kinds of methods for speaker measurement, and knowing what was done (and by whom) might help you evaluate what worth it provides to you. If you think this is bad, look at subwoofer comparisons. [:0]

SOCS: Who presented anything as an independent "review?" I think we've been lucky to get reports from inside parties. The most interesting thing from MD or hectic1's reports to me has been that these people who like their Ref1 monitors for two-channel audio now find the SOCS-equipped speaker is competition.

I'm one who (I consider myself lucky enough to) got to hear a pre-release demo. I did write up my comments on audiocircle, but it was intended as "WOW! wait for what's coming up." I also wanted to explain an analogy I'd had that day comparing audio-frequency spectral smearing to how an image looks when you look through a prism.

Who knows how long this technology will take to trickle to more widespread application (if it will at all). The only recommendation I'd make right now is that if someone had a P-1A in hand that they might not want to sell it, or if you found one cheap and were curious about SOCS, it might be a real-good deal - Nothing more.

The demo happened to be on a 750, but to me a valid statement would be that the CBM-170s with SOCS might sound better than [your choice of $3,000 monitors]. That was the intended point of saying this technology is confusing (ticking off?) some of those who have been chasing this ideal with lots of dollars.

And IMO I totally agree with the price of the 750s being the price of the 4-driver-array monitors and their stubby stands. Or put them on your own little platforms. Or cut down the legs on your sofa. Or sit on the floor. Maybe a mistake was made in the design - I don't know. Maybe they should include the risers and raise the cost.

One could raise the question of why the CBM170s don't come with a prettier design or don't cost as little as a pair of Fluance monitors. It is a specious argument. How much do you want to pay for your speakers? Do you like how they sound (and look)?

But as to how Jake put it? To borrow from Bull Durham (and hopefully a smile to some people's faces):
"Well, I believe in the soul, ...[edited out for family hour], the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good Scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter, I believe in the sweet spot, soft core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long slow deep soft wet kisses that last three days."

And I believe that "Jake"'s purpose is to inflame, not to inform through humor.

enjoy,

jake
02-04-2004, 03:27 AM
FYI...

The SOCS relesase coming up is ONLY for the 750's.
It was ONLY programmed for the 750's, I believe, according to MLS.

Marketing, Marketing, Marketing
****, ****, ****
Garbage, Garbage, Garbage.

Again...my opinion.

curtis
02-04-2004, 03:45 AM
Jake,

There has been mention that SOCS will be available for other speakers later down the road, and that there will be a "kit" so people can customize the software for whatever speaker they own. If the later happens, then I think we can see some more interesting posts.

Eric,

You have heard a SOCS on a RS750? Can you point me to where you posted your thoughts?

-curtis

azanon
02-04-2004, 03:47 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Azanon, I also like some bite in my humor, but I’d like to share a feeling that’s developed over a few years of living. To ensure the humor is enjoyed I believe you need to make the friend *first* and then make sure they understand when you are using humor. That being said, we are all still human, and make mistakes in what we say and write. Sometimes things need to be retracted if it becomes clear they were misunderstood.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Well, now I was mostly defending Jake, Eric. I dont think I really crossed any line, other than perhaps my lashing out at Bob once -and i'd like to think we've since made up. My snickering at what MLS said was just reinterpreting what it sounded like to a lay-folk; a bunch of complex adjusment needed to make RS750s sound right - something i'd never be able to do. I wasnt making fun of him, just the situation, that make sense? Now I'll admit I do share Jake's humor regarding "Rockets" approach (not sure the name of their company, lol) to slashing 50% off their speakers, then jacking it back up. I believe MLS has to be accountable to the consumers for that, so I think that's fair game. I understand others, like BradJudy, are perfectly ok with that. Regardless, if Ascend ever does that, I hope I never find out because I couldn't help but feel like i got ripped off. Speakers arn't like, say, computers where an existing technology will sell for half the price 1 and one half years later because they will have increased that much in performance in that time (Moore's law).

As for retraction, I don't believe in regretting what you say. If regret is really necessary, it should be a major exception to the rule, especially for someone as old as I am (32). My approach is clarification, when its needed. Truth isn't always pleasant, and I don't personally think that someone has to be my enemy simply because I disagree on this point, or that point. I dont make friends well with sensitive people, as I tend to be quite blunt. So if the other feels agreement on all issues is necessitated for friendship, oh well! I dont believe in compromising values to make a "false friend".

Azanon

Eric D
02-04-2004, 04:08 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by curtis

Jake,

There has been mention that SOCS will be available for other speakers later down the road, and that there will be a "kit" so people can customize the software for whatever speaker they own. If the later happens, then I think we can see some more interesting posts.

Eric,

You have heard a SOCS on a RS750? Can you point me to where you posted your thoughts?

-curtis
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=5708&start=0

Actually, if I understand it right, the software is a general phase and volume correction. The coefficients can either correct for either the speaker-only (SOCS) or for the whole speaker and room part of the audio chain (everything from the electrical signal at the end of the wire to your ear) (RCS). If you want the second, or if they have not yet developed coefficients for your specific speaker, you use the mobile measurement kit (MMK) to measure your equipment and then send it back to them to develop the corrections coefficients.

The last set of demos Mr. Schifter has been giving were with a set of RS750 coefficients. It have read about demonstrations of earlier instantiations using Vandersteens and Martin Logans at different times - I don't recall the models.

It will be an audiophile-thing for some time, what with the cost. Maybe in a few years, when we're all driving anti-grav floating cars, we'll be able to have the receiver tell our Asimo robot to wander over to the speakers, take the measurements, and then it will correct the room. More likely, I'll have to choose between the Ascend Acoustics and AV123 nerve implants that broadcast sight, sound, and smell directly to my brain.

But then we''ll be saying that the Onix nerve implants make wine smell like soda pop! [:D]

enjoy!

Steve Ozmai
02-04-2004, 04:30 AM
Curtis,

Boy...where to start? I guess this is as good a place as any...

Quote: Yes, Ascend does sell speaker wire, a third party brand. But nowhere on this forum has anyone said "the Ascend speaker wire will make your speakers sound better."

So you're actually stating that the speaker cable sold by Ascend has no sonic value whatsoever, but is purely for looks? But wait a second - what about this...

Quote: The very notion of Rocket Risers implies that "we know that enough of you will need to raise the speaker to make it sound better, so we offer the risers".

Hmmmm...seems somewhat of a contradiction to me. Your argument is so flawed I don't even know what angle to refute it from. Using YOUR rational, as stated above, does not "the very notion" of speaker cable offered for sale through a speaker manufacturer imply an improvement? It must, otherwise there would be no reason to carry it...correct? Surely David's not going to tell me I will hear absolutely no difference whatsoever by using the expensive cables he sells - but is this what YOU are stating?

Thank you for putting words in our mouths, Curtis, but the truth is we do a pretty good job of this ourselves. Should you actually care to know the reason for the Risers, you would find out that these were created specifically at the request of several RS 750 owners for reasons not isolated specifically to sonic improvement. The most notable of these is stability. The 750 is a fairly narrow speaker with a somewhat small footprint. As a result, our customers with this speaker on a high-pile carpeting, or with dogs, children, high traffic areas, or other reasons for concern tend to need something with a slightly larger platform. Rather than create 2 accessories - like many companies have done ("outrigger" supports and stands) - we created the Risers to solve a couple issues simultaneously. We've never spoken, though you seem to know what I'm thinking before even myself. However, had you actually called me on this one, you would have learned that in many instances I will advise against the 750 Risers depending on the room environment. They are certainly not necessary for everyone, and are not "needed" to improve the 750 anymore than an Ascend customer MUST have wall mounts and speaker cable.

But I see your point - we should be punished for offering this, and any other accessory for that matter. You know, I wasn't going to buy the lens kit for the new digital camera I purchased, but I guess I have to now - if they're offering it, it must be the only way my camera works well!

Quote: SOCS - What is the claim that it will do? That for $1500, it will make a $1500/pr of speakers sound like a $40,000 pair? There is not even a set release date for this product, yet there are already reviews on how well it performs, and the reviews are not written by a third party. Who is the target audience?

I love this one. Where exactly did we say that it'll make a $1500.00 speaker sound like a $40K speaker? I can't seem to find us stating this anywhere...oh yes, I forgot...YOU are speaking for us now. I'm going to cut this one short...please do me a favor, Curtis, and don't post on subjects you have no first hand knowledge on. SOCS is currently in beta test, and the reviews you have seen thus far are from these beta testers. Please give me your definition of third party, because I think we're getting crossed here.

Regards,

Steve Ozmai
steve@av123.com

Quinn
02-04-2004, 04:43 AM
Steve,

You need to attribute who the quotes you use are from. People are going to think those are all from Curtis with his name at the top and not take the time to read all this junk to see they are mostly from Jake.

Eric D
02-04-2004, 04:45 AM
Azanon,

I don't regret intent. I just sometimes regret the execution of it if I failed to communicate - even if it's only to a few people while the majority of others "get it." I have a good friend that isn't that sophisticated in humor. It is easy to jerk their chain or to put one over their head and so ridicule them in front of others. There has been a few times I've regretted fast words there, and believe me I have no intent to harm.

I "Mr." Mr. Schifter sometimes as a weak inside joke. He is younger than I, and has told me on more than one occasion to call him by his first name. But in this venue, I also mean it to show he and Mr. Fabrikant the respect I feel they are due, to welcome their input on these forums. Neither would I come to your house and "diss" you in front of your children.

[:I] BTW, it's Mr. A M A R ****. mea culpa.[:I]

And I also have a massive amount of respect for those people like Mr. Bott and Mr. (?) Curtis [;)] who give of their time to try to bring a little order to this exercise in anarchy that is the internet.

I do get some insight from a large discount being offered on a sale.
Moore's Law is an interesting point. So are mass-production manufacturing methods. I also wonder about things like overhead, warehouse space, inventory taxes, as well as profit margins. In the actual discussion of that sale, I read some interesting things like comparison of the costs through the manufacturing plant vs. the cost delivered to Colorado.

Then there's our personal decisions as consumers. We have to consider sales tax, use tax, shipping costs, whether I'm destroying the local economy by not purchasing through a brick and mortar store. "Made in America," vs. where the profits are going (My Toyota Tacoma was manufactured in Fremont, California - I drive past it daily).

I just happen to find it a complicated matter - guess that's all. Keep yoru sense of humor, and enjoy the wit but consider the veracity of people like Jake.

enjoy!

Steve Ozmai
02-04-2004, 04:47 AM
They were in his post, so I attribute them to him. If I'm mistaken, I'll be the first to apologize.

Steve Ozmai
steve@av123.com

oontahey
02-04-2004, 04:57 AM
So when this one gets locked can we just start another one right above it like we did the last one? :-)

just kidding...just kidding...

azanon
02-04-2004, 04:59 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">But in this venue, I also mean it to show he and Mr. Fabrikant the respect I feel they are due, to welcome their input on these forums. Neither would I come to your house and "diss" you in front of your children.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Fully agree with that. To my knowledge, Ascendforum.com isnt MLS's house even figuratively, though I'm well aware he's welcome here. I'll also continue to show DF respect here, as I have thusfar. But to clarily, disagreement does not equal disrespect, which is the extent of anything I've had with DF on these forums.

Quinn
02-04-2004, 05:06 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Ozmai

They were in his post, so I attribute them to him. If I'm mistaken, I'll be the first to apologize.

Steve Ozmai
steve@av123.com
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Please link the post. Because most of these I only find in posts that Jake made.

Steve Ozmai
02-04-2004, 05:12 AM
I'll be honest with you here - I have no desire to read Jake's post and I'm not even going to bother to do so - I've wasted enough time with this guy and I know the type - these forums are a great way to boost your self esteem when reality just isn't cutting it. I did, however, read Curtis' posts as he is a moderator on this forum and participates quite frequently on the AV123 forum. His words ARE of importance to me and I read what he has to say - just as I'm sure he's reading this.

Again, if I misread his post, the one that contains the quotes I included, I am sorry and I have no argument. Let's clear this up...because I honestly don't have the time or the desire to go through and find hidden meanings. WHO is the one that is implying that our SOCS makes a $1500.00 speaker sound like a $40,000.00 speaker? WHO is stating that the Risers are "necessary" to make the 750's "sound better?" If it's not Curtis then I sincerely apologize - seriously - and it's my bad (I'll delete the post if so). If it IS Curtis, then my argument stands.

Sorry for any confusion.


Steve Ozmai
steve@av123.com

ultraman
02-04-2004, 05:28 AM
I got the feeling that Curtis was hit by a punch intended for Jake. This is like a chaotic bar room brawl over whose girlfriend is better-looking. Steve just came out shooting and fired without IFF. (Identify friend/foe).
You like a blonde, I like a brunette. Big deal.

azanon
02-04-2004, 05:31 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">WHO is the one that is implying that our SOCS makes a $1500.00 speaker sound like a $40,000.00 speaker? WHO is stating that the Risers are "necessary" to make the 750's "sound better?" If it's not Curtis then I sincerely apologize - seriously - and it's my bad (I'll delete the post if so). If it IS Curtis, then my argument stands.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I havent seen anyone here say that, either directly or implied - so no need to wade through the forums here. The only suggestions I saw regarding improving the 750s performance were those made by MLS in his first response to Santa at you guys forums in that RS750 vs 170 review. A few of us here snickered about his comments, obviously exaggerating his suggestions for humor, but it was certainly nothing to get defensive about.

Azanon

(edit) ... and Curtis definitely didn't participate, as its not his style.

pegleg
02-04-2004, 05:45 AM
I think Steve@av123 was writing without reading. I just read the whole string (putting it in WORD so I wouldn't feel a need to post too soon) and Curtis comes off as reasoned and reasonable. As a /moderator/.

Steve comes off as something else, and shouldn't post so fast if he is a representative of AVS. It puts the company in a poor light.

Sorry, Steve, but you cannot plead "not enough time" to go through the posts, unless you want to read and lurk. Please be sure of who said what, and to whom, before making accusations. Take your time, even if you don't have the time.

Pegleg

Gregisme
02-04-2004, 05:46 AM
Wow. lots of peacock feather struttin' lately! lol.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Ozmai

Curtis,

Boy...where to start? I guess this is as good a place as any...

Quote: Yes, Ascend does sell speaker wire, a third party brand. But nowhere on this forum has anyone said "the Ascend speaker wire will make your speakers sound better."

So you're actually stating that the speaker cable sold by Ascend has no sonic value whatsoever, but is purely for looks? But wait a second - what about this...

Quote: The very notion of Rocket Risers implies that "we know that enough of you will need to raise the speaker to make it sound better, so we offer the risers".

Hmmmm...seems somewhat of a contradiction to me. Your argument is so flawed I don't even know what angle to refute it from. Using YOUR rational, as stated above, does not "the very notion" of speaker cable offered for sale through a speaker manufacturer imply an improvement? It must, otherwise there would be no reason to carry it...correct? Surely David's not going to tell me I will hear absolutely no difference whatsoever by using the expensive cables he sells - but is this what YOU are stating?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Just wanted to clarify some info on the speaker cable (and I'm sure Curtis will be here eventually to speak to this and your other boisterous critiques of his post).

My understanding is the reason Ascend offers speaker cable has more to do with it being a convenience to buyers of their speakers. Questions such as "where should I get speaker cable from?" or "what kind?", etc. come up quite often. So, as a courtesy, they offer some fairly decent basic inexpensive cable for those people. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I also highly doubt that it's based on any grand profit motive (I think the cable they offer is pretty inexpensive stuff), nor is it based on any extensive testing of cables to find just the perfect cable for Ascend speakers.

None of this is to suggest in any veiled sort of way that the Rocket Co. is supplying cable or whatnot for robber baron profits. I don't know enough about them to even begin to suggest something of the sort.

Quinn
02-04-2004, 05:52 AM
Onix cable was reasonably priced when I bought mine from av123.

Steve Ozmai
02-04-2004, 05:53 AM
Thank you for the post, Greg. I agree with you and appreciate your opinion. I'm not judging any intent on Ascend's part to selling speaker cable - we carry our own line of cable as well.

My problem with this post was the implication that an "accessory" is, by default, a required necessity to ellicit a given response promised by the manufacturer. This has no truth whatsoever and is a flawed argument, hence the speaker cable example. No hidden agenda here...that's it.

Steve Ozmai
steve@av123.com

curtis
02-04-2004, 05:55 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Ozmai

Quote: Yes, Ascend does sell speaker wire, a third party brand. But nowhere on this forum has anyone said "the Ascend speaker wire will make your speakers sound better."

So you're actually stating that the speaker cable sold by Ascend has no sonic value whatsoever, but is purely for looks? But wait a second - what about this...

Quote: The very notion of Rocket Risers implies that "we know that enough of you will need to raise the speaker to make it sound better, so we offer the risers".

Hmmmm...seems somewhat of a contradiction to me. Your argument is so flawed I don't even know what angle to refute it from. Using YOUR rational, as stated above, does not "the very notion" of speaker cable offered for sale through a speaker manufacturer imply an improvement? It must, otherwise there would be no reason to carry it...correct? Surely David's not going to tell me I will hear absolutely no difference whatsoever by using the expensive cables he sells - but is this what YOU are stating?

Thank you for putting words in our mouths, Curtis, but the truth is we do a pretty good job of this ourselves. Should you actually care to know the reason for the Risers, you would find out that these were created specifically at the request of several RS 750 owners for reasons not isolated specifically to sonic improvement. The most notable of these is stability. The 750 is a fairly narrow speaker with a somewhat small footprint. As a result, our customers with this speaker on a high-pile carpeting, or with dogs, children, high traffic areas, or other reasons for concern tend to need something with a slightly larger platform. Rather than create 2 accessories - like many companies have done ("outrigger" supports and stands) - we created the Risers to solve a couple issues simultaneously. We've never spoken, though you seem to know what I'm thinking before even myself. However, had you actually called me on this one, you would have learned that in many instances I will advise against the 750 Risers depending on the room environment. They are certainly not necessary for everyone, and are not "needed" to improve the 750 anymore than an Ascend customer MUST have wall mounts and speaker cable.

But I see your point - we should be punished for offering this, and any other accessory for that matter. You know, I wasn't going to buy the lens kit for the new digital camera I purchased, but I guess I have to now - if they're offering it, it must be the only way my camera works well!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Steve, do you truly think these are apple to apple analogies? So lets look at why the risers exist: Because the floorstanding speaker is unstable or because they are necessary for sonic improvement, correct? In either case, it makes the product "better", right?

Speaker cable at Ascend: Convenience. Wallmounts: Convenience

Please explain to me your logic for the comparison as you referenced it.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Ozmai

Quote: SOCS - What is the claim that it will do? That for $1500, it will make a $1500/pr of speakers sound like a $40,000 pair? There is not even a set release date for this product, yet there are already reviews on how well it performs, and the reviews are not written by a third party. Who is the target audience?

I love this one. Where exactly did we say that it'll make a $1500.00 speaker sound like a $40K speaker? I can't seem to find us stating this anywhere...oh yes, I forgot...YOU are speaking for us now. I'm going to cut this one short...please do me a favor, Curtis, and don't post on subjects you have no first hand knowledge on. SOCS is currently in beta test, and the reviews you have seen thus far are from these beta testers. Please give me your definition of third party, because I think we're getting crossed here.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Steve, the $40K was in reference to Eric D's post earlier in this thread, which as been discussed and cleared up. The reviews I have read are posted by individuals that have an affiliation with AV123. Third party would mean, no affiliation. Beta testers that own company products for whom that "testing" for, are not third party. Your apology is accepted.

Eric D's post did not imply that it would the speaker sound like a $40K speaker....he used it as an example. I just used the same example.

Let me know if I missed anything, because I will respond to every shot taken.

By the way Steve, what did YOU think of the soda-pop analogy?



-curtis

Quinn
02-04-2004, 05:57 AM
Steve O. -
While it may have been an honest mistake you represent AV123 and need to take the time to represent av123 in a good light and not pop off on someone about posts another person made. If you don't have the time to make sure who said it don't respond.

Steve Ozmai
02-04-2004, 05:57 AM
Pegleg,

To have a discussion, it is the responsibility of the writer to make his opinions known, and to make the reader aware if the views expressed are not necessarily his own. I do this in my posts, and expect the same from others - perhaps that is assuming a bit more than many are capable of. Read Curtis' post, and his post only, and develop your own opinions - I have expressed mine based on what I read. If his intentions were different, I have acknowledge fault and submitted an apology - quit trying to create controversy when there is none. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. If I'm not, then my argument stands. It could not be any more black and white.



Steve Ozmai
steve@av123.com

curtis
02-04-2004, 05:59 AM
There would more understanding if you read the whole thread.....that is why it is a thread.

-curtis

Steve Ozmai
02-04-2004, 06:04 AM
Curtis,

The fact that you continue this nonsense baffles me. To avoid further confusion, let's take this offline and actually have a conversation via an invention called a telephone.

I can't believe I'm actually stating this again, but here it goes. An RS 750 Riser MAY make the product "better" for some individuals, but will have absolutely no effect for others - do you not understand this point? As some people need wall-mounts because a speaker stand simply won't work, some customers need more stability if the speaker as-is simply won't work - is that clear?

Thus, for the last time, they are not "necessary" to ellicit the response we represent. This is my problem with your post, and now with TWO of your posts. Call me, please if you'd like to discuss any of this further. And thank you, oh so very much, for accepting my apology.

Steve Ozmai
steve@av123.com

Gregisme
02-04-2004, 06:04 AM
And furthermore.. I'm on a roll here!.. in reading that particular post again from Curtis on this thread {the second of his three posts on page 2 of this thread}, the one being reacted to, I suppose I could imagine that his comments could be taken to be aggressive in nature to someone who isn't very familiar with his style. I think those of us who are very familiar with the way Curtis conducts himself on this, and other forums, we see his comments/questions as genuine inquiries offered with curiousity, as opposed to seeking to criticize or get one-up on someone.

His follow-up post at the bottom of page two lends credence to my point, I think.

Steve Ozmai
02-04-2004, 06:11 AM
I read your post (before the edit) Greg and, again, I agree. It is my fault for not reading the entire thread beforehand, though we're in the middle of a huge b-stock clearance right now and even getting the time to type between phone calls is nearly impossible. As such, I had no desire to read 35 posts full of non-sense and trolling simply to discern the "meaning" of one I actually cared about.

The lesson has been learned. I do respect your opinion and your point of view though - had I read through start to finish, I probably would not have posted.

Thank you!

Steve Ozmai
steve@av123.com

curtis
02-04-2004, 06:16 AM
Steve,

Yes...I understand the point you are making. The riser goes on the floor where the speaker is/was. A wallmount is so you can mount the speaker in a different location. I realize the riser may or may not make the speaker sound better, but when someone is not happy with the sound of the RS750, the riser is almost always suggested.

I see that my post/reply to Eric has been posted out of context over at AV123. Brucer has posted a snapshot of my post, smart move since people can not see Eric's post. It would be much appreciated.

Would you be willing to help get that fixed? Obviously I can not defend myself because Sean closed the thread, I would like to reference Eric D's post. Now I feel like azanon.

I do not want to take this offline. You have taken your issues publicly, so I would hope you would want to keep it public. If you had responded to me privately it would have stayed private.

-curtis

Steve Ozmai
02-04-2004, 06:27 AM
None of what I have done is in the interest of "taking shots" Curtis - though you continue to post this for your members to read - do what you feel is right.

I have met and spoken with David, and have exchanged several e-mails with him. I have no problem with Ascend or the products HE (and not you) produces. I have had these in our office, have seen prototypes of products even you won't see, and respect what he has done. In fact, as I have explained to him several times in the past, I appreciate the products he has made available, as they allow me to assist MY customers more effectively, by providing a high-performance low-cost alternative when our speakers just won't work. There is more than enough room for all of us in this industry, and the sooner you realize this, the better you'll be. More than a few times have I sent a customer packing to the Ascend website. So, again, get your facts straight before you begin hinting at my motives without speaking with me first - unless this is all a big show, in which case you may do what you please.

My reason for posting was to confront an opinion you expressed that was clearly not accurate and misleading - the end, that's it. I don't like making a public show out of this garbage - hence the phone call request. You may defend yourself all you like and have the last word - I'm not hell-bent on proving you wrong. My suggestion to you was simply to clear this up and speak man to man so that future discussions are not built upon this exchange. Fair enough though - I'll accept your decline gracefully and make my exit. I have to say it's quite a shame what has transpired this week.

Steve Ozmai
steve@av123.com

curtis
02-04-2004, 06:32 AM
OK Steve, my apologies for using the "shots" word...I have changed it to "issues".

Nonetheless....there is still a post out of context on AV123.

-curtis

Eric D
02-04-2004, 06:33 AM
Yeouch! And although I hate to give him the pleasure, please understand that my choice of $ amounts was arbitrary, and chosen in response to Jake-the-troll's choice of words as follows:

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I mean c'mon...selling a $1500 "tuning" software for a speaker that only costs $1400? Who the heck in their right mind would buy that? I can see if the speakers costs $40,000 that maybe it would justify the costs, but $100 more than the speakers? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Methinks the choice of titles for this thread was well made. Now to head over to AV123 to see what this quotation is all about... [V]

oontahey
02-04-2004, 06:37 AM
Ya'll are silly!

Gregisme
02-04-2004, 06:47 AM
Just for the record, I edited out my last post thinking that nobody had a change to see it yet, but Steve, as he noted in follow-up message, already had. Sooo.. for the sake of not creating any unnecessary mystery for anyone, I've put my comments back in, albeit slightly modified.

I initially edited out those above comments simply because there were several posts made just immediately prior to my posting at the time, that I felt my post wasn't quite relevent anymore (as Curtis himself started to respond in his own defense). Sorry if I cause any confusion.

Gregisme
02-04-2004, 06:55 AM
off topic to Eric D. -

referring to your earlier post, anyone who quotes Dr. Dean Edell is alright by me.. if more people would follow his health care advice, there'd be alot less gullible, misguided people in this world!

oontahey
02-04-2004, 07:01 AM
Yeah..but quoting Kevin Costner? woo-boy... :-)

Eric D
02-04-2004, 07:05 AM
LOL!

Gregisme
02-04-2004, 07:07 AM
well, he's not reeally quoting Costner now is he?? It's the screenwriter, afterall.

and I agree with just about everything from that famous quote the screenwriter put in Kevin Costner's mouth to say!

Sean Parque
02-04-2004, 07:08 AM
Why do I work at AV123? Because for over half my life I have been involved with music and movies in one way or another. From being a floor director, sound engineer and camera operator for local TV shows to simply sitting in my home enjoying one of life's great gifts, music. When I read the things being said and all the back and forth, I loose a little bit of my zest for all this. I am ashamed that this stuff affects me so much sometimes but it does because I do love this hobby and I *enjoy* helping people get their gear set up. I see a comment like this:

that there was an overwhelming desire by the Rocket followers to convince the auditioning customer that there was something wrong with him-his room-his equipment-his emotions-the phase of the moon etc.

Now, true there are some overlyenthusiastic people on the AV123 forum but that applies to every forum out there. Truth is, when someone posts something that is so uncharacteristic of a product that many of us know extremely well, then we want to try and figure out what's up. I think it would be wrong *not* to try and help. Someone spent some serious cash to get speakers and I'd rather try and see why they have this impression rather than have him or her return everything and lose money on shipping. Another reason for this is 95% of the time, it is a set up issue or something along those lines. I take calls all day here...a lot of knowledgeable people call as well as people that are just getting started. Many don't know how to properly set up a system. I'm talking about proven rules that apply to all speakers - not just ours. So again, while some get too worked up, the reason for trying to help people with issues...is to *help* them! If it does not work out in the end, he returns his speakers.

One last item here...a select few of you are very selective when referring to posts. If you take the time to do some searches, you will see several posts where someone comes in with "my bass is muddy" or whatever...suggestions are offered and the problem was found...mis configuration, whatever. It is solved. Why not quote these as well? ...because it's harder to bag on us is my only guess. I had a customer that purchased a P3A DAC. He posted saying he heard no difference. With the logic being presented here, he should have just returned it. Turns out he neglected to hit the pure direct mode and his receiver was reprocessing the signal and stripping the improvemts made by the P3. Simple fix. I simply can not see an argument against us trying to assist a customer that has an issue that seems completely off base. I would hope all manufactuers would be so kind rather than treating me like one of a million other customers and not caring if I was happy or not - and not caring if I returned something or not as a result of that dissatisfaction.

I mean c'mon...selling a $1500 "tuning" software for a speaker that only costs $1400? Who the heck in their right mind would buy that? I can see if the speakers costs $40,000 that maybe it would justify the costs, but $100 more than the speakers?
Another thing...SPEAKER STANDS...FOR TOWERS. Hullo? Made by the manufacturer no doubt.
All these little side items being sold for the 750 can only mean one thing...even av123 knows the sound is lacking...bigtime.

Here is where things get really off track...to make such a terse post...dissapointing.

The $1500 tuning item Jake is talking about is the P1A with SOCS. There is so much wrong here, I don't know where to begin. First, the SOCS software is made for all speakers. It needs to be customized for each model but the base code exists for every speaker ever made. We measured the 750s first because they are our speakers...why wouldn't we? We know the speaker inside and out. I can't think of a reason not to use ours first. We will have correction algorithms for thousands of speakers when we are done. Please do a tiny bit of reasearch and see what the P1A does alone. We have been selling the P1A for *years* without SOCS to owners of speakers from the Rockets to $135K Genesis 1.1s. SOCS corrects frequency response and time alignment. Nearly every speaker on the planet has phase shifts. All of ours do. So do Ascends. This corrects that. It's not something that can be done in the XO as it's partially the XO that causes phase shifts. Please see 2000 CES info that has the software running on B & W N802s. We've tested it on many others as well. Note that version of the software had a bug that could not be corrected so the entire code base was re-written by hand in assembly...that's why it's taken so long to introduce. The point is this software is not just for Rockets...it will improve any speaker. This is a measurable effect. Flatter FR and less phase shift.

On the comment about the Risers; no one is forcing anyone to buy them. I don't even use them myself. See my gallery photos at AV123 forum for proof. The point of the Risers is 1) to add stability for people with small children or rambunctions pets. The Rocket towers are slim and can be a little tippy on large-pile carpeting. We know this. They are slim to improve the WAF. Most wives don't want a big ugly box in 'their' living room. A smallish tower that is slim is much preferred in our studies. This does not apply to everyone, but a large enough percentage. 2) If the tweeter is below your ears, you need to get that tweeter to ear level. I don't use the Risers because the tweeters are at my ear level while seated. If you are very tall or have a high seating area, then you can use them. Another thought is to make your own. A few supplies from Home Depot and you can do whatever you want...easy.

&gt;&gt;&gt;Speaker measurements - Mad Dog posted measurements of the ELT, RS750, and Ref1. His findings were not near the AV123 specs. But, his methods were not questioned. Can you explain to me why? Whose specs are more accurate?&lt;&lt;&lt;

Neither. Properly measuring speakers is extremely difficult. Sorry no one questioned Mad Dog...but I don't believe most speaker measurments as there are differing techniques etc. It's not as an exact science as one may think. The 750 is expecially a PITA because of the topology. If we could all send speakers to the same third party and have them measured then those measurments would hold water. Otherwise, nope. Not even ours! (before you ask, we did have the speakers measured by a third party. Bascom H. King if anyone wants to send theirs over there as well)

&gt;&gt;&gt;SOCS - What is the claim that it will do? That for $1500, it will make a $1500/pr of speakers sound like a $40,000 pair? There is not even a set release date for this product, yet there are already reviews on how well it performs, and the reviews are not written by a third party. Who is the target audience?&lt;&lt;&lt;

Not sure what the problem with a product not having a release date is. It's still in beta. Mad Dog and Hectic1s posts should have been prefaced with the fact that it was early software...the versions they have are already outdated. Curtis, I am not sure what you mean by "not written by a third party", but these are just forumites like you and everyone else here. We always pick the beta testers from the forum as they are the ones that are active in the community and many people know their names. If the fact they are beta testing a product makes them biased, then what can I say? Don't read their posts. Wait until Stereophile (or whatever mag you like) does a review of SOCS. The P-Tech gear is already Class A rated by Stereophile. Those two got to test the software because they are extremely familiar with the speakers we readied it for. When we are ready to release the software, we will be able to burn a CD with a track from any CD and then burn it corrected for your speakers. This way you can hear what it does without even demoing the actual gear. Seems like we are not afraid of everyone hearing this 'tuning' are we? :)

&gt;&gt;&gt;The SOCS relesase coming up is ONLY for the 750's.
It was ONLY programmed for the 750's, I believe, according to MLS.

Marketing, Marketing, Marketing
****, ****, ****
Garbage, Garbage, Garbage.
&lt;&lt;&lt;

This is the stuff that makes me ashemed for our hobby. Newbies see this type of misinformation with nothing to back it up and doesn't know what to think...

In the end, these are just speakers. This has taken way too much of everyones time and has served no purpose at all.

I recommend Ascend speakers frequently. Anyone who calls in and talks about past speakers, types of music they listen to etc will have me asking lots of questions. There have been several cases where I recommended the person NOT buy Rockets as I did not think they would like them. These cases are documented on the AV123 Forum. I care about the customer having good sound as much as I care about my pocketbook. Having a system out there that sounds bad to a person does not help our hobby in the long run even if in the shrt term it's beneficial to me personally.

I personally think the 170s are great speakers and have said so numerous times. I love lots of speakers...not sure why so many seem to think you can not like more than one...170s, RM-30s, 300Es, etc are all favories. We can all get along here...

That's all for now. I'm available at Sean@av123.com or 877.543.7500 x 308 if anyone wants to chat one on one...

Sean

Sean Parque
02-04-2004, 07:12 AM
Curtis, the post with the screen cap has been removed.

Regards,

Sean

curtis
02-04-2004, 07:20 AM
Thanks Sean,

I have cleared things up with Steve in my posts and on the phone.

One question about SOCS and the CD you can burn for demos. If you new a specification for a particular speaker, loaded it into a SOCS like program on a PC, could that PC then burn a copy of that CD as interpreted by SOCS, and then played on the speakers?

If SOCS does what it is said to do, I think selling it as PC CD burning that would do very well! Making it available to the masses is a much better thing.

-curtis

Eric D
02-04-2004, 07:23 AM
I hate to mix the fun with the very serious, but another one did pop into my head that seems applicable here. And if I was in trouble for quoting Crash Davis, how bad is it to find wisdom in the words of Ebby Laloush on this "rainy day.":

"A good friend of mine used to say, 'This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains.' Think about that for a while."

Sean Parque
02-04-2004, 07:26 AM
&gt;&gt;&gt;If you new a specification for a particular speaker, loaded it into a SOCS like program on a PC, could that PC then burn a copy of that CD as interpreted by SOCS, and then played on the speakers?
&lt;&lt;&lt;

Not quite. Only we can burn the CDs...there are securioty measures we must take to keep the software from being copied...too much time and money has already been spent! ;)

&gt;&gt;&gt;If SOCS does what it is said to do, I think selling it as PC CD burning that would do very well! Making it available to the masses is a much better thing.
&lt;&lt;&lt;

Once we have a large DB of speakers built up, anyone could call up and request the CD. We will simply burn it for their speakers...doing it this way makes it available to the masses as they don't even have to purchase the gear to hear the improvment. Please let me know if you have any other questions!

Regards,

Sean

Eric D
02-04-2004, 08:23 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gregisme

off topic to Eric D. -

referring to your earlier post, anyone who quotes Dr. Dean Edell is alright by me.. if more people would follow his health care advice, there'd be alot less gullible, misguided people in this world!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Thanks, and I agree wholeheartedly with your follow-on statement. The other words I hear him use from time to time are meant as a restatement of Occam's Razor: "If you hear hoofbeats, think horses - not zebras."

I wish I had time to hear him on a regular basis, rather than the odd times when I'm back late from lunch when running errands or on my off Fridays if I just happen to have the radio on. Sometime I've got to check out his book.

Lou-the-dog
02-04-2004, 11:13 AM
Sean,

This was a quote from my post so I'll respond.


"that there was an overwhelming desire by the Rocket followers to convince the auditioning customer that there was something wrong with him-his room-his equipment-his emotions-the phase of the moon etc."


My opening line in that particular post was to explain that I was a relative newcomer to this hobby. I intentially explained this so my views would be taken in that context. When I explored the different speaker options available I was turned off by the overzealous nature of the posters supporting your products. Lots and lots of "fixes" offered but very few statements like, "Hey, that is the Rocket sound and maybe it's not for you!" This type of overly-aggressive support sometimes does more harm than good. For every auditioning customer that they really do help there may be two or three that get turned off by the circus show and leave to find another product that is not so "apparently" finicky. This sums up my situation and I found the people of Ascend and the Ascend Forum to be much more casual in there approach to win me over to there great products. I realize now that there seems to be a small core of the over-zealous "helpers" but reality is, at least in my case, they cost you the sale. I live in a small (500 people) town in the Midwest and we often say that we are lucky to live here because everyone cares so much. We also often say that we are UN-lucky to live here because, "everyone cares TOO damn much!" I think trying to sell internet direct speakers with the support of us on the forums can be similiar- if you know what I mean.

Regards,
Randy

jake
02-04-2004, 01:56 PM
Sean...
Your explanation on the existence of the speakers stands is acceptable. But maybe you should tell some of members of the church of Mark LS that same reasoning.
Because many of them are suggesting that risers are needed to place the tweeters precisley at ear level, and that is the reason why the Rockets sound muffled...among a million other things.

So it's not so much your opinion that turns people off...it's your over zealous followers/worshippers.
Lou the dog hit the nail right on the head.

I auditioned a million and one speakers when I was buying. If a speakers has good highs, it has good highs. Raising the speaker a few inches off the ground is NOT going to change the inherent nature of the tone. It might make a slight difference, but not enough to make a muffled speaker sound open. Rockets ARE considered a LAID BACK speaker...general consensus seems to agree on AVS forum and the such. If a speaker needs to be perfectly aligned with the ears (as suggested by some of your posters), there is something wrong with the speakers dispersion (or whatever the term is).

Do you really think that one of the first steps to gain better sound from a speaker is to junk a Denon 3803 and buy seperates? It's those types of suggestions that are off the wall that I was poking fun at.

So maybe you should try educating some of your followers.
Take Lou The Dog's statement with a little seriousness, because I believe it is doing your company more harm than good.

azanon
02-04-2004, 09:19 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">So maybe you should try educating some of your followers.
Take Lou The Dog's statement with a little seriousness, because I believe it is doing your company more harm than good.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
That's the irony of what you're saying Jake.... you're actually trying to help them by pointing out the err of their ways. I wonder if anyone at their company realizes that. I think its obvious your motives are not just to critize just for the sake of doing so. If I'm understanding you correctly, you probably wouldnt even mind owning a pair of rockets if the price were fair. Am i wrong?

I know the couple comments I made were for the same reasons. The rockets sound like great products...... if the price were fair. For example, the RS250, from what i've read, is a very competitive product to the cbm170. Problem is, one cost 328 and the other (currently) 600. But all of us know based on this last christmas its really a $349 speaker, which would account for the slighly less performance in the mid/high range, though compensated for by the wood cabinet. As for its bass performance, what enthuist cares about low bass performance anyway since 90% of us will be sending all those frequencies below 80hz to our subs?

Sean Parque
02-05-2004, 02:09 AM
Jake, I do understand what you are saying...there just isn't a lot I can do about very enthusisastic customers posting...I've sent private messages to those that have been a bit too hyper about it all and it helps sometimes but there are always new people joining. So, it's go the super-moderated route OR let the people reading the forum read between the lines and form their own opinion on weather or not to read/trust a particular persons comments...

&gt;&gt;&gt;Because many of them are suggesting that risers are needed to place the tweeters precisley at ear level, and that is the reason why the Rockets sound muffled...among a million other things.&lt;&lt;&lt;

That is just a small part...most speakers will sound rolled off when the tweeter is below ear level due to the way the ear processes sound coming from below...try this with the 170s. I have. (but I get what you are saying)

&gt;&gt;&gt;ARE considered a LAID BACK speaker...general consensus seems to agree on AVS forum and the such&lt;&lt;&lt;

Unfortunately this is left-over mis-information from the 'classic' version of the XO. The highs were rolled off a bit giving the speaker a soft sound. To be truly laid-back, you need a dip in the vocal area of the midrange and the Rockets do not exhibit this. The new Sig XO bumps the top end to flat so no more soft sound. They arent't bright but they are not soft like before...

&gt;&gt;&gt;Do you really think that one of the first steps to gain better sound from a speaker is to junk a Denon 3803 and buy seperates? It's those types of suggestions that are off the wall that I was poking fun at&lt;&lt;&lt;

Generally no. The 3803 is great for the money. I only say generally because I personally can not use the 3803 for 2 channel because I have heard way too many excellent set ups and the 3803 just is not good enough for me anymore. It's a personal thing...but I do not recommend replacing a 3803 just like that...I talk to my customers at length to find out what they want to improve etc. This stuff is uniquely personal for everyone so I try and understand the best I can before I recommend something. This includes me suggesting returning the speakers if I don't think they will work for them in the end.

&gt;&gt;&gt;So maybe you should try educating some of your followers.&lt;&lt;&lt;

I want to be cool here but you yourself have posted several items that were incorrect so I would say that education for all involved would be beneficial but you who are asking me to educate are not even doing this yourself...what can I do?

&gt;&gt;&gt;Take Lou The Dog's statement with a little seriousness, because I believe it is doing your company more harm than good&lt;&lt;&lt;

I agree. This has always been the case. Take the famous Bob_A from AVS...he got an entire forum to hate Def Tech speakers because of his posts (he was a BIG fan). All I can say is read between the lines and know there are over-zealous people affiliated with pretty much anything you can possibly think of...it's human nature. You have to be smart enough to filter this yourself. Being a customer advocate is good but can be taken too far. It comes to the point where you start belittling the very people you are trying to help...as if they are not smart enough to research on their own. I've received many an e-mail to this effect...

Anyway, that's my POV.

Thanks for listening.

Sean

curtis
02-05-2004, 02:44 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sean Parque

All I can say is read between the lines and know there are over-zealous people affiliated with pretty much anything you can possibly think of...it's human nature. You have to be smart enough to filter this yourself. Being a customer advocate is good but can be taken too far.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Sean....this is a HUGE point and I totally agree. But to a newbie it is very difficult. It is an art form that takes time to develop. Advocacy helps these newbies, but must be done in a correct manner.

The point about the risers and the need for tweeters to be at ear level is totally understandable. But take a look at the Rocket Riser webpage and tell me if that is what is being stated.

http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=19.1

To a newbie, it reads like the risers will improve sound regardless. That is quite bothersome, and IMO, deceiving to a newbie.

How does a newbie read between that? No where in the description does it say that it is only necessary in certain situations.

Advocacy is a great thing, but where should it start and end? Where should moderation start?

-curtis

cjsparky
02-05-2004, 02:55 AM
Azanon and Jake,

One simple question, have either one of you even HEARD any Rocket product. EVER???

Christian

oontahey
02-05-2004, 03:18 AM
There are lots of awesome sounding floorstanders that benefit from an aftermarket base or riser. The Linn Ninka for one...those speakers sound awesome...stick em' on their special base and they sound awesomer. Is "awesomer" a word? How many times can I use the word "awesome" in a sentence?

curtis
02-05-2004, 03:29 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by oontahey

There are lots of awesome sounding floorstanders that benefit from an aftermarket base or riser. The Linn Ninka for one...those speakers sound awesome...stick em' on their special base and they sound awesomer. Is "awesomer" a word? How many times can I use the word "awesome" in a sentence?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

It may not be a real word, but I have heard it many times. [:)]

Anyways, if the base makes them sound better regardless, then why not include them with the speakers?

-curtis

cjsparky
02-05-2004, 04:05 AM
Curtis, Mark Levinson hardware would certainly make my speakers sound better!!! I am going to call AV123 and find out why they diddnt include this either!

Christian

Steve Ozmai
02-05-2004, 04:08 AM
Curtis,

Using that rationale, why don't we just include everything with the speaker that can make it sound better.

It's called business - and this is probably one of the first pages in the 101 textbook. Why doesn't my Toyota have "auto" windows all around? It's better, right? So why not include it? Get David in here, and he'll explain to you first hand the tradeoffs that have to be made to introduce a product in a target market. The CBM-170's are no different. What's the major criticism I see on these speakers...one word - looks. So why doesn't David make a speaker using solid Honduran Mahogany? Surely he'd sell more, right? COST.

Start a business, Curtis...build a product from the ground up in a factory YOU paid for, and then MAYBE you'll get it.




Steve Ozmai
steve@av123.com

oontahey
02-05-2004, 04:12 AM
Probably the cost. I can only speak for the Linn, as I have not heard the rocket. You don't NEED the riser if you don't want to spend the money, they sound super sweet as is. But putting it on the stand seems to bring more out of it. (So does making them active but that is a whole nuther ball of wax). I don't know what I am talking about, but it seems to me that selling aftermarket gizmos does not imply an inferior product (I buy aftermarket stuff for my most excellent truck all the time)....just smart business selling extra stuff to a base that can, will, and wants to support it. And I agree! "Awesomer" is an official word here at ascendforum!

curtis
02-05-2004, 04:35 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Ozmai

Curtis,
Should you actually care to know the reason for the Risers, you would find out that these were created specifically at the request of several RS 750 owners for reasons not isolated specifically to sonic improvement. The most notable of these is stability. The 750 is a fairly narrow speaker with a somewhat small footprint. As a result, our customers with this speaker on a high-pile carpeting, or with dogs, children, high traffic areas, or other reasons for concern tend to need something with a slightly larger platform. Rather than create 2 accessories - like many companies have done ("outrigger" supports and stands) - we created the Risers to solve a couple issues simultaneously. We've never spoken, though you seem to know what I'm thinking before even myself. However, had you actually called me on this one, you would have learned that in many instances I will advise against the 750 Risers depending on the room environment. They are certainly not necessary for everyone, and are not "needed" to improve the 750 anymore than an Ascend customer MUST have wall mounts and speaker cable.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Steve, Christian, oontahey, and Sean,

I will buy into the analogy of add-ons to improve sound. Your point is taken.

I worked in a shoe store when I was in high school, and we tried to sell as much as we could after the shoes to improve the business/make more money, but it didn't make the shoes any better.

Steve's quote above is good example of being honest and upfront with the customer. But the webpage I do not think is honest and upfront. The webpage is the first point of contact.

-curtis

azanon
02-05-2004, 04:38 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">One simple question, have either one of you even HEARD any Rocket product. EVER???<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

No. I hadn't heard the Ascends either when I was shopping for new 5.1 setup. I'll tell you exactly what I did. I read many many threads at AVS Inc, threads at a few independant websites like av123 and here, reviews from customers at audioreview.com, and independ reviews that were conducted on similarily priced speakers. As a busy person who doesnt have the time to buy all of these, and demo them for myself, I was forced to rely on a consensus opinion.

I came very close to purchasing a Rocket package in early December, but quite frankly the price stopped me. I was also looking hard at Axioms. I had actually found 2 or 3 actual comparisons from folks who had tried the RS150/250s vs cbm170 and they all said the same thing; better mids/higs on the 170s, better lows on the rockets. Now i'll admit right here, those opinions dont necessarily make that fact, but frankly, I like the odds. Now, had I made my purchase decision during that big sale, I probably would have gone with the rockets, cause i could probably give up a little high end fidelity for that beautiful wood finish. But to pay more for a speaker without equal performance at the high end, sorry i cant do that.

Having not demoed anything, do you think I bought a great speaker for what I paid?

Know what i'd do if i were buying today? I would probably call us the folks who sell rockets (sorry dont know business name), and ask em if I can pay the christmas price for a 5.1 setup. If they said no, it wouldn't hurt my feelings a bit. Ascend would get my money. As MLS has already told me once, they sell plenty at the regular price. More power to ya MLS.

Azanon

cjsparky
02-05-2004, 04:42 AM
Hey Azanon, in this thread you said that your speakers were wonderful right out of the box. Could you please explain this...

To each his own, but that does suck. Perhaps the problem lies in his overall setup rather than a single component (be it speakers or receiver settings). Just ask azanon how much difference a short calibration session can make. :-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - ClutchBrake on 01/18/2004 10:31:04 PM

or this?

http://www.ascendforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=253

Oh and Jake may want to take a read too as it seems that after doing a bit of tweeking and such with the Ascends, they were able to lick the problem and the sound is much better now. I am glad they were able to fix it without getting NASA to provide them with the Big dipper co-ordinates.

Christian

oontahey
02-05-2004, 04:43 AM
That's a good point Curtis, about "not making the shoes any better." When I heard the Linn put on a stand the guy next to me couldn't hear a difference...shrugged his shoulders and was like "whatever..." I could swear I did. Who's right? We both were.

I hope my speakers shipped today! My sub did.

azanon
02-05-2004, 04:45 AM
What's a receiver problem have to do with speakers, Christain? I was, and still am, using a 200 dollar Sony Receiver. Surely, that is self-explanatory, eh?

My issues with my system, christain, were predominately an overpowering, booming sub, per that thread (did you read it?). In short, i had the gain too high, LOL. Not exactly planetary aligment.

cjsparky
02-05-2004, 04:47 AM
Well the "Muffled 750" thread was a reciever problem too, but that dosent seem to matter too much...

Steve Ozmai
02-05-2004, 04:50 AM
Wow. You know, to be honest, Curtis, we may as well start another thread with the things that AV123 is not allowed to do, but that every other company MUST do to succeed. I'll begin compiling now...

1) Run promotions and/or sales
2) Discount any item for any reason
3) Make any claims on any product about "improved" performance of any kind
4) Sell a product
5) And last, but definitely not least, make money...GASP - he said it!

Seriously, Curtis, now you're just digging for things to pick at. Are you actually upset that the text on our Risers indicates an improvement when used with our speakers? You have got to be kidding me. I'll promptly change the text to...

RS 750 Risers - Please do not purchase these. Move on now.

Steve Ozmai
steve@av123.com

azanon
02-05-2004, 04:52 AM
Point taken. But still we're way out of context. Jake and I just found similar humor in MLS's suggestions. Nothing more. ha ha ha. breathe in, breathe out, ok???

Feel like we're beating a dead horse now.

cjsparky
02-05-2004, 04:54 AM
I just read your post above azanon, I have not heard them before, but I can tell you that after reading comments from NON ascend owners over at AV123, then I can honestly say that for the price that they charge for speakers that sound like the ascends do(ive heard through the grapevine) that you absolutely made a fantastic choice, and have wonderful SOUNDING speakers at a wonderful price.

Christian

P.S. I too have wonderful value in my Rockets!

cjsparky
02-05-2004, 04:58 AM
Agreed, dead horse!!! Lets stop and have a beer! In all seriousness, if anyone is around atlanta that will let me listen, i would love to hear them first hand.

Christian

azanon
02-05-2004, 05:01 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I too have wonderful value in my Rockets!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
And ive said it a few times now, they were my second choice. I cant wait till i get the chance to hear some Rockets in action.

nhan070
02-05-2004, 05:06 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cjsparky

Agreed, dead horse!!! Lets stop and have a beer! In all seriousness, if anyone is around atlanta that will let me listen, i would love to hear them first hand.

Christian
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I'm in the Atlanta area...towards Lawrenceville. Give me a holler. I would like to check out those Rockets.

cjsparky
02-05-2004, 05:15 AM
nhan, what are you running your ascends off of?

I am using a Kenwood Sovereign reciever, and it works OK but I am looking to use it as a pre/pro and get a 200+ amp to run the rockets off of. Give me a call anytime at 404-925-1875 and we can arrange a listen...Only problem is I work on weekends, but we can work something out I'm sure. I live in Kirkwood near East Lake...familiar with it?

nhan070
02-05-2004, 05:24 AM
An Onkyo898 is running mine. One thing, I have the speakers mounted on the walls with them directed towards the sweet spot. By the way is not the "ideal" listening position, but if need it would not be a big deal to take them down...should be fairly quick and simple.

Bummer, weekends are all I have. Just did a look up for Kirkwood, we're about 30mins or so apart. I'm towards intersection of 85N & 316. I'll give you a buz..

Lou-the-dog
02-05-2004, 05:25 AM
[:D][:D][:D]I'm still rolling from oontaheys "awesomer" post!![:D][:D][:D]

curtis
02-05-2004, 06:07 AM
OK...no more beating a dead horse.

-curtis

ClutchBrake
02-05-2004, 06:09 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by curtis

OK...no more beating a dead horse.

-curtis
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

What about spanking the monkey?

http://www.vectorlounge.com/04_amsterdam/jam/flamjam.html

oontahey
02-05-2004, 06:11 AM
Monkeys scare me.

Eric D
02-05-2004, 06:12 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by azanon

[quote]As for its bass performance, what enthuist cares about low bass performance anyway since 90% of us will be sending all those frequencies below 80hz to our subs?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

While the big boys are over on the deceased equine, I'd like to talk a little about this statement. Not from any Hatfield/McCoy AV123/Ascend point at all, but just from a setup thought. It's intended as some "over a beer" talk. [:)]

I've repeatedly read over several years that the ideal setup for crossing speakers to a sub is to use a crossover point one full octave above (twice the freq of) the -3dB low end of the speaker. This is because crossovers aren't brick walls. The start rolling off above the stated freq and the allow freqs below the crossover to go to the "small" speaker. If you choose a crossover point that matches the natural roll off of your speaker, you risk a "hole" in the overall freq response of your system. (also why you defeat the low-pass filter on the sub when you use the receiver crossover).

Azanon, you yourself mentioned that crossovers are gradual in another thread. (I wasn't looking for stuff to pick on, just searching the forum for recommended crossover freqs. What you said was good advice). If I was helping a friend set up the Ascends, I'd recommend 100 hz as a starting point, but suggest they also listen to and measure both 80 and 120 provided the receiver had those capabilities. I know the amount of rolloff depends on the receiver. There's also room interactions, and finally personal choice.

There's another possible benefit from a higher crossover freq. If you have an equalizer on your subwoofer and a room node in that higher range, you can eq it out. I think about this because I personally have a problem (2nd order) about 100-110 hz, but my poor ole Denon 3300 only crosses at 80 hz so I can't do anything about it at this time. At least I was able to get rid of the primary 50 hz hump, which made a my subwoofage awesomer.

Now as part of Jake's idea of audio snobs (admittedly, I run 750s with a preamp and outside amplifier and have a jones for SOCS), it's probably less inflamatory if I bow out. But IMO, like mountain bikers and horseback riders (both are trail users), we have more in common than in difference.

If you want to hear my personal story, and even to poke some fun at it - it might be educational - your-all choice. I don't take myself too seriously - I may even have to use some more Kevin Costner quotes for effect.

But even if I leave right now, I'd like to honestly suggest that a few of you might go in together and get a copy of the SOCS demo CD for the CBM170s. You bought your Ascends because you were't willing to settle for any-old-sound, so IMO you are fellow seekers of audio-truth.

I have reason to suspect that for at least a few of you, it will blow your mind, and might make you start saving money for upgrades. It would be funny to me if azanon or even Jake one day started using that technology.

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."

have a good one!

curtis
02-05-2004, 06:23 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClutchBrake

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by curtis

OK...no more beating a dead horse.

-curtis
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

What about spanking the monkey?

http://www.vectorlounge.com/04_amsterdam/jam/flamjam.html
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

That is a pretty cool site.

-curtis

Lou-the-dog
02-05-2004, 10:21 AM
I understand that Eric D is a satisfied Rocket owner but I sense that he will be an Ascend owner in the near future as he's starting to use the Ascendonite language now!! (What are we anyhow?- maybe it's Ascendians.)


[quote]Originally posted by Eric D
[ At least I was able to get rid of the primary 50 hz hump, which made a my subwoofage awesomer.[:D]


Randy

curtis
02-05-2004, 10:47 AM
Ascenders

-curtis

Lou-the-dog
02-05-2004, 11:09 AM
I suppose we could be Ascendateers but that seems taken and it makes me think of Mickey Mouse anyhow. [:D]

Randy

mlschifter
02-05-2004, 11:30 AM
Dear Ascend Forum Folk…

I’ve decided to write a bit of a reply after sharing some very nice mail between David and myself. David invited me to reply on your board… so here I am. I’m not the least bit interested in any of the goings on from this thread or others, but I would like to set the record straight a bit about our Perpetual Technologies P-1A, and Speaker Only Correction software (SOCS)…

On the hardware side, the P-1A is a “general purpose DSP-Engine” capable of some pretty remarkable stuff… It has on-board “interpolation software” (custom designed algorithms) that allows the user to “interpolate” 16-bit Redbook Digital to a full and complete 24-bit(s).

As well… it has hardware based upsampling so that one can input 16-bit data (again, like CD’s)… and output 24-bits (like DVD et. all). This in and of itself is pretty cool, and the P-1A has won numerous awards all over the world (Asia, Europe etc.), including the coveted Class “A” rating from Stereophile (provisional) and the top award from The Absolute Sound as well.

Our SOCS program has been delayed many times over the years due to software issues only recently solved. There was never any real issue with the hardware, or the code itself that Keith and Peter have written… just our Chief Scientist (Keith) has been through an awful lot (personally) over the last few years… and we were slowed by this. In all, between the custom OS and all of the custom code, there are about 150,000 lines that have been written to date. The bottom line is this, all is well… and we are proceeding.

In simplified form let me explain that the data necessary for us to create a “coefficient set” for a given loudspeaker requires both on and off axis measurements (at distance) as well as several near field responses for the woofer(s) and port(s) as well. This data is then combined and then we set about converting all of this (convolving) into data that can be fed into our “coefficient generator” within a PC. This process takes a Hyper-Threading Pentium 4 about an hour to an hour and a half before it spits out the final corrections. We then load this (via USB) into a P-1A…

The P-1A will be able to correct for frequency (amplitude) variations as well as PHASE deviations over the entire band. At present, we have about 1125mS of correction “aperture” (more than enough for even the most violent of offenders) available to us.

EVERY speaker has phase and amplitude errors… some are more gross than others… but they all have it… I’ve seen some very popular loudspeakers with better than 5000 degrees of (cumulative) phase error (adding up all the phase “wraps” etc.)… With the P-1A we can achieve a +/- 10 degrees of error through the band, as well as about a +/- .25dB of amplitude error finalized. Don’t even get me started on pre-corrected amplitude error… I’ve seen some dillies.

The SOCS software will be available for ANY loudspeaker. We used our own Rocket RS 750 for this phase of the beta program as this was convenient for all parties working on this. I didn’t feel like going out and buying 8 or 9 pairs of (say) B+W N802’s etc.

Our library of corrections contains many speakers now… but we are now adding more daily. Most speaker companies have fully cooperated with us as they realize that this could sell more speakers (for them) as well as allow the full performance capabilities of their given speaker to be realized.

Do you need it…? NO… would you want it after hearing what it can do… I feel safe in answering a RESOUNDING YES to that. We’ve demonstrated earlier / less powerful versions of this technology using speakers given to us by Thiel, Magnepan and others… to 1000’s at CES (two years running), and around the world in more than 2 dozen early demos of this technology. I stopped doing this until the software was finalized and we were ready to go to market. There are to date just over 3500 P-1A’s out there and ready for this… with more being sold each day.

We’ve also demo’d this technology to aircraft, automobile and railcar manufacturers… as this technology of canceling the phase and amplitude error is the ultimate expression of adaptive “noise reduction” technology. I can tell you that these demos were most impressive… and as I’m involved in the automobile business in Far East Russia, I would not be too surprised to see this technology or something very similar to it in automobiles sooner than you think.

So, there you have it… David and I are working closely in several areas together as the companies and the people have nothing but tremendous respect for each other… I think David is First Cabin ALL THE WAY… and hopefully all of you will get to see some serious fruits from this friendship soon…

Wishing you all the very best…

mls


Mark L. Schifter
Founder and President
av123 / Perpetual Technologies

curtis
02-05-2004, 11:39 AM
Mark,

Thanks for the post and raising our member count. [:)]

I think we have been able to take a step back from events in the past couple of evenings and take a breath. Things seem much more civil now...myself included.

Would love to experience SOCS on the RS750's, and let us know when the Ascend speakers make it into the database.

thanks again for stopping by

-curtis

mlschifter
02-05-2004, 12:00 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by curtis

Mark,

Thanks for the post and raising our member count. [:)]

I think we have been able to take a step back from events in the past couple of evenings and take a breath. Things seem much more civil now...myself included.

Would love to experience SOCS on the RS750's, and let us know when the Ascend speakers make it into the database.

thanks again for stopping by

-curtis
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Thanks for the welcome Curtis... I sincerely appreciate your message...

Soon enough we will have SOCS for everyone to listen to... My guess is next week we will launch out... [:)]

All the best...

mls



Mark L. Schifter
Founder and President
av123 / Perpetual Technologies

pegleg
02-05-2004, 10:59 PM
If I may ask a dummies question here. I've already read the appropriate discussions at the av forum.

How is the SOCS and P-1A hooked into a system? Is the P-1A like an equalizer, that the SOCS (a CD disc?) programs?

With my stereo system (an HK 3400 receiver), how would I even think about adding these features?

Thanks,
Pegleg

Eric D
02-05-2004, 11:41 PM
Ummm, the P-1A doesn't have a DAC. It is hooked up in the digital stream between your CD player and an outboard DAC - for pegleg probably your receiver. It can be defeated if you're passing a DD or DTS signal.

BTW, there is supposed to be a new box out soon that will be able to run the correction software, called a P-5, that includes multiple digital and analog inputs (and ADC), switching between them, a DAC, and volume control. It will be a digital stereo processor/preamp.

The CD is a sample disc that they prepare by "pretreating" the digital bits to correct for a specific speaker. You can play it on your existing equipment to see what effect SOCS would have.

enjoy,

curtis
02-05-2004, 11:45 PM
ooops....I stand corrected....and deleted my description

Thanks Eric.

-curtis

Eric D
02-06-2004, 12:28 AM
Oh yeah, meant to add: Isn't Ascendonite some mineral from an exploded planet that weakens pompous audiophiles?

And I thought of changing the description of the "Rocket Riser" stands for 750s to "Rocket Ascenders" or "Rocket Awesomizers." Would either allow me to qualify as an Ascendamaniac?

Ascendateers... [chuckle] Damn, now I'm going to have "Who's the leader of the band," etc. stuck in my head all day. Fitting penalty for wandering over here I guess.

[:o)]

pegleg
02-06-2004, 01:02 AM
Ascendites for those of us (us?) who are dogmatic.
Ascenders for those who want to keep upgrading.
Ascendees for spouses of that just above.

Pegleg

Derek
02-06-2004, 01:48 AM
Mark,

Thanks for posting here!

The socs appears (to me at least) to remove the poor room acoustics at the digital level. So, is the ultimate goal to produce a perfectly flat response at the listening position, or produce a response that matches what the speaker should sound like in a chamber?

If the answer is the former, wouldn't that essentially make all speakers sound about the same? If so, then a $100 speaker should sound almost exactly like a $10,000 speaker. Also, wouldn't you be removing the trademark "laid back" rocket sound? This is basically what the guys in the htpc forum on avs did in the digital room correction thread. Also, if your boosting the signal quite a bit, wouldn't the speaker require lots more power? I also assume that this only works on two channel pcm streams, not multi-channel dd or dts streams. Correct?

However, I am guessing that the answer is the latter, due to the fact that you are building a database of speakers which (I don't think) would be necessary if you are just trying to flatten the response.

Also, how large of a "sweet spot" does this create? How bad do the speakers sound outside of this area?

I have been playing with software based parametric eq's to equalize my sub, basically becasue I'm too cheap to buy a bfd and I like to tinker. Socs sounds like a much more advanced version of this.

Thanks again,
Derek

jake
02-06-2004, 02:10 AM
Sorry to break it to you MLS...but no one is going to pay $1500 to "fix" a $350 speaker.
If fact, you'll find very few who will pay $1500 to fix a $1400 speaker.
What's the point exaclty?
If you SOCS was priced at around $100, then maybe I can see the interest.

But for $1500? Will it make it sound better than a $3000 pair of speakers? Maybe, maybe not.
If SOCS is so great, why ever buy a pair of expensive speakers...I can just apply SOCS to a $200 pair of CC Lsi's (ha...I'm still awaiting your proof on that one...just for those who don't know...MLS tried to justify his 50% off sale by saying the POLK LSI's were on sale at Circuit City for 60-70% off. CC doesn't carry LSI's if you ask me. MLS promised me proof...still waiting.)

Even if it does make a slight difference, you'll never sell many copies at that $1500 price tag.

Not many people buy a $10,000 car, then spend and additional $30,000 to make it better. Most people will take the $40,000 and buy a better car to begin with.

Take my advice, don't even bother tyring to market your $1500 SOCS to anyone who might be considering ROCKETS or ASCENDS. Anyone who might be considering spending $1500 of a speaker "fixer" sure as heck isn't going to buy speakers in the price range of ROCKETS or ASCENDS.
You need to be targeting the multiple tens of thousands of dollar speaker owners.

Why the initial roll out of the ROCKET 750's? Isn't your ONIX line your reference line? Isn't THAT your "musical" speaker? Why target the ROCKET owners who all seem to under the same idea that ROCKETS are meant for HOME THEATER? Easy audience to market to for obvious reasons?

curtis
02-06-2004, 02:40 AM
jake,

In all fairness, I believe SOCS is more aimed at folks that already have the P1A. People with that piece of hardware are more interested in two-channel right now. If you have a P1A, then SOCS is $400, as oppose to $1500.

My question would be how many RS750 owners actually have a them set up for two-channel, and have a P1A?

The P1A itself is definitely targeted at higher end two channel listening, so once the self calibration kit is available($200?), or more speakers are in their database, I think it is a reasonable assumption that these owners of P1A's will be willing to see what SOCS can actually do for them.

True, people like us Ascenders, bought them because of their great value. I for one, no matter how good SOCS is, will not be willing to spend money on a P1A and SOCS. Making my CMT-340's sound better is not an issue for me, I am quite happy with their sound, and I would rather spend that $1500 on somethingelse or put it in my kids' college fund.

That doesn't mean that I am not very curious about the improvement SOCS makes.

-curtis

curtis
02-06-2004, 03:05 AM
To make this thread even longer......

nhan and cjsparky, I really hope you guys can get together and check out each others speakers/systems.

-curtis

Eric D
02-06-2004, 04:45 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jake

Sorry to break it to you MLS...but no one is going to pay $1500 to "fix" a $350 speaker.
If fact, you'll find very few who will pay $1500 to fix a $1400 speaker.
What's the point exaclty?
If you SOCS was priced at around $100, then maybe I can see the interest.

But for $1500? Will it make it sound better than a $3000 pair of speakers? Maybe, maybe not.
If SOCS is so great, why ever buy a pair of expensive speakers...I can just apply SOCS to a $200 pair of CC Lsi's (ha...I'm still awaiting your proof on that one...just for those who don't know...MLS tried to justify his 50% off sale by saying the POLK LSI's were on sale at Circuit City for 60-70% off. CC doesn't carry LSI's if you ask me. MLS promised me proof...still waiting.)

Even if it does make a slight difference, you'll never sell many copies at that $1500 price tag.

Not many people buy a $10,000 car, then spend and additional $30,000 to make it better. Most people will take the $40,000 and buy a better car to begin with.

Take my advice, don't even bother tyring to market your $1500 SOCS to anyone who might be considering ROCKETS or ASCENDS. Anyone who might be considering spending $1500 of a speaker "fixer" sure as heck isn't going to buy speakers in the price range of ROCKETS or ASCENDS.
You need to be targeting the multiple tens of thousands of dollar speaker owners.

Why the initial roll out of the ROCKET 750's? Isn't your ONIX line your reference line? Isn't THAT your "musical" speaker? Why target the ROCKET owners who all seem to under the same idea that ROCKETS are meant for HOME THEATER? Easy audience to market to for obvious reasons?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Jake, the "initial roll out" isn't for the Rocket 750s. In his own words [my bolding]: "We used our own Rocket RS 750 for this phase of the beta program as this was convenient for all parties working on this. I didn’t feel like going out and buying 8 or 9 pairs of (say) B+W N802’s etc. "

But I think you're right - he won't sell many for the Rockets, and approaching (asymptotically?) zero for the Ascends - that isn't the market. At the price point of a P-1A (or P-5) plus the software, it will be for people who are willing to spend more. Like maybe those with $5,000 speakers looking to make them sound like $40,000 (or better?) (Althought at those prices, IMO they are starting to pay for unique appearance or just bragging rights.) Or maybe those who want might think about $5,000 speakers or want to see if $1400 + $1500 will do just as well.

You said: "Not many people buy a $10,000 car, then spend and additional $30,000 to make it better. Most people will take the $40,000 and buy a better car to begin with. " I say, but there are some who will buy a $10,000 car, add $3,000 in wheels and tires, and another $2,000 in stereo, and another $1,000 in a ground effects, and another $2,000 in a custom paint job. BTW, have you seen what some people will pay for a turntable, tonearm, or cartridge? What ever happened to my old phonograph?

Anyway, you're right on target about whether or not Ascendateers are a target audience. But they might be for trickle-down technology. Maybe the cost *will* get down to $100 in a few years. Maybe a subset of the technology will be used to correct crossover phase differences, giving a large percentage of the benefit for a fraction of the cost. Then it's my bet you would be interested - especially if $100 is also the cost of a cup of coffee at Starbucks by that time. [:)]

Heck, I wish they had debuted the cost of 50" plasma screens at $1000 myself. But if they haven't come out at $10,000, then they never will get down in price to something I'm willing to spend. Are you saying they shouldn't have HDTV because you can't do it for $500 yet?

But I'm with you - good sound at affordable costs. Get as much improvement for as little dollars as possible. I'm hoping for inexpensive digital amps, a standard high definition audio format, and cheap front projectors with HDTV resolution. Could you please "sic" some of your wit in the direction of getting those for me? [}:)]

enjoy!

cjsparky
02-06-2004, 05:31 AM
JAKE!!! You always miss the point, and always come off so damned confrontational...This product is for people who fly first class, who spend 100's or 1000's for a freaking needle for their turntable, for people who MOD their Mark Levinson hardware. For people who really want to get the most sound out of their systems. There are 30K Pre/Pros out there... there are also 10K pre/Pros out there that could me modded to be just as good as 30K Pre/Pros!!! Just because you dont understand something, does not mean it is bad...Ok? Just b/c you cant see a market for something dosent mean it dosent exist...3500 pieces of the hardware in circulation now (thats the expensive part) ready for the upgrade...Not for folks like you, O.K? or ME for that matter!!! Bottom line though, THIS WILL CHANGE THINGS IN THE INDUSTRY!!!!! dont be frightened of it though Jake...its not going to bite you...I promise

curtis
02-06-2004, 05:59 AM
Just a thought here....lets be civil all the way around. This is possibly a good discussion that is not just looking from mostly one side.

On top of that, I believe digital speaker correction(which I think this is...please correct me if I am wrong) has been around for a while, so the technology itself is not ground breaking. What will be ground breaking is if this technology does trickle down to people like me.

-curtis

jake
02-06-2004, 06:06 AM
Sorry sparky, I believe it is you who is missing the point.

Point is, maybe there is a market for this "tuning" software...but it sure as heck isn't the Rocket/Onix or Ascend listeners.

Rocket/Onix and Ascend listeners are "Budget" speaker buyers. Very few, if any, will part with $1500 for a NON-refundable tuning software. Why market SOCS here or on the ROCKET forum?

Go to some higher end $8-$100000 speaker websites and market the product over there.

Also, for the other guy who mentioned that people spend money on car upgrades...wheels, tires, computer chips, etc. don't generally add up to 100-300% of the price of the car.
If someone spends $40K on a BMW 330, chances are they won't be spending another $40K to fix it up. That's the point.

MLS is barking up the wrong tree if he thinks advertising here is going to generate any business.
I'm not sure why David would OK Mark to come over here and market his gimmick\niche product.
I didn't buy Rockets for that exact reason...so much over the top marketing it makes you sick.
When a company can "Throw" in a free Denon 3803 when you buy a speaker package, that means the speakers are way over priced.

I don't want to see all that damn marketing mumbo jumbo over here.
It's like a constant commercial over at the church of MLS.
Keep the ROCKET marketing crap over there.

Lew Crippen
02-06-2004, 06:48 AM
An interesting post after the moderator requests a civil discussion.

Ben_Wood
02-06-2004, 07:03 AM
(sigh) This used to be such a friendly site. . . [B)]

oontahey
02-06-2004, 07:21 AM
OK Curtis I take it back...I see why locking threads can be a good thing.

46minaudio
02-06-2004, 09:12 AM
Note I dont know alot about SCOS. Jake IMO there are 2 things that affect the way a system sounds ..
1. Speakers (making sure the amp is able to drive the speakers)
2.room
If this system corrects the room MLS has a winner.

curtis
02-06-2004, 10:02 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 46minaudio

Note I dont know alot about SCOS. Jake IMO there are 2 things that affect the way a system sounds ..
1. Speakers (making sure the amp is able to drive the speakers)
2.room
If this system corrects the room MLS has a winner.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Well, SOCS is speaker only. I believe the follow up product, ROCS, is room only.

-curtis

JohnnyCasaba
02-06-2004, 10:03 AM
Jake,

I'd like to think all are welcome here. I don't think MLS posted here to market his product. I think most would agree that it would seem foolish to spend $1,500 to correct a pair of $300-$500 speakers. I believe MLS just stopped by to explain what SOCS is and clear up some of the confusion. After all, it was not him who brought up the SOCS subject.

Lou-the-dog
02-06-2004, 11:50 AM
If MLS is still out there I'd like a description of the Room Correction Software and how it works. Is the P1A needed for this too?

Randy

curtis
02-06-2004, 12:22 PM
Lou,

If you head over the AV123 forum, http://forum.av123.com , you should be able to find something on it. The folks there are much knowledgeable with what is going on with the AV123 products.

-curtis

cjsparky
02-06-2004, 12:25 PM
Jake, Well said!!!

and I'm done.

ultraman
02-07-2004, 09:36 AM
sheez, Jake. You are the one that started all of this the last time. Lets tone it down a bit, eh? Maybe no one else will rise to the occasion this time, (to Jake's disappointment).

curtis
02-07-2004, 09:59 AM
ultraman...lets not add any fuel...things have been calm for over a day now.

-curtis

ultraman
02-07-2004, 09:30 PM
And..... that would be my point. Perhaps you make it better than I.

azanon
02-07-2004, 11:50 PM
Since this is my thread, my original complaint was to Curtis that i felt he closed another thread too quick. He expained he was busy, something or other, so he closed it since he wouldnt be around to deal with anything that got out of control. I feel that was a sufficient answer so I am no longer "disappointed" about it, for lack of a better word and i'm all happy and smiles.

That being said, I think there's nothing more to say regarding the thread topic and there's quite a bit of stuff that has nothing to do with that in here. So if its ok with you, please close the thread Curtis. No offense guys, but go find your own thread to discuss SOCS :-) (smiles geniune).

Azanon

curtis
02-08-2004, 01:05 AM
This is thread is respectfully closed at Azanon's request.

We can start a SOCS thread if needed.

-curtis