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muzz
05-20-2007, 03:26 PM
Hey folks,

I am NOT trying to start a flamewar, but I was, and still am, a bit disturbed by the closure of 1 Sierra thread, and the complete DELETION of another.

There was a response in the pricing thread, that I would like to respond to here, as I didn't want to turn that thread into a morass......

So I figured, I'd bring it up here instead.

Here is the Post I am responding to, and I understand EXACTLY what Quinn is saying, and take my share of the responsibilty for my own behavior ( believe it or not, I held back quite a bit) in that thread....


I was waiting for that 2nd thread to get deleted. You can't thumb your nose at the AVS mods on AVS and expect them to let it slide. There were Ascend fans on that 2nd thread calling out the AVS mods after having a thread closed and a warning issued.

Of course there was some hostility in 2nd thread.

The 1st thread that was LOCKED, was for a really weak excuse, all you need to do is peruse around AVS, and you will see PLENTY of threads in regards to stuff that is NOT on the market.

Quick look around=

The NHT thread, that is many pages long, was started AUGUST/30/05, and is still going strong.... first lines in that thread?

From a NHT newsletter.

*************

Scheduled to ship in October, NHT CLASSIC will consist of the following eight models.

The NEW B&W600 series thread (they weren't available, they were linking BROCHURES!!)

ARRRRRRRGHHHHHHH, this happens EVERYDAY at AVS, I can go on there right now and pull up 10 threads that are HYPING an upcoming product, whether it be an upcoming HDTV, an Upcoming BD player, an upcoming PJ, Upcoming HD Radios,Upcoming this and upcoming that!!

That "Support" excuse is PURE garbage, plain and simple, and yeah it pissed alot of us off...
I myself was a bit ugly on there, I will not deny it, but the excuse for some of their heavy handedness is outright pathetic..

And well, if it wasn't for us enthusiasts, they wouldn't have a forum to peddle their wares in the first place, so IMO it works BOTH ways.

WHY weren't some of the guys in that first thread warned, or why were they allowed to stir up trouble, what ever happened to actually monitoring threads, and deleting offending posts?

I am aware of the member count there, it is obviously VERY busy, and they have ALOT to monitor, but really, a thread that is taking off like that one was, should OBVIOUSLY be easily seen, and monitored.

If ANYONE wants to throw that STUPID, BS excuse out there again, don't waste your time, I have already given 2 PRIME examples of that being total bullshit, and like I said, it wouldn't take long to find more examples.

I am aware that noone is perfect, especially me.

bleair
05-20-2007, 05:11 PM
It has nothing to do with being a pre-anounced product.

AVS forums are there based upon one real purpose. The economic benefit/lack of costs to AV Science. They like that enthusiasts come. They like the membership, but if users complain about a thread, or more importantly, if advertisers complain about a thread, it will get deleted.

My ancedotal experience suggests that keeping calm in the heated discussions and just ignoring the taunts is the best way to keep a thread open. Not easy of course.

In the near term, my hope is that someone will be able to post their own first hand comments about their own expereinces with the Sierras and people who are interested in the topic will ask questions and people who aren't, just won't . I can hope anyways :)

When something new comes out in home theater it can be exiciting for us enthusiasts. People who are excited try to describe positive attributes and the phsyical properties that they think are contributing to the positives. This stuff can get emotional for people and then you get mean posts. I assume that most of the users at avs are just individuals and are there in their free time. I wish they would chill and remember it is supposed to be an enjoable hobby. :P
And for those members that are 'turfing the forums for a business reason, you can usually detect it in their posts and just add those users to your ignore list.

Happy reading :)

jvillas
05-20-2007, 05:27 PM
I have not and wil not post in the avs speaker forum. I would highly recommend everyone to to use the Ascend Acoustics forum.

I admire curtis ablility to handle with skill the avs forum

muzz
05-20-2007, 07:21 PM
Yes, Curtis is very calm and restrained(Oh, he gets pissed, but he does really well gathering himself.. thats why he has the kind of job that he does), he and I have discussed this b4,and I have given him props for that.

I am actually VERY mellow in comparison to how I used to be, I know some folks may find that hard to believe, but it's true.
I believe part of that is attributed to talking with Curtis(the other part? Getting older, and dealing with that crap more and more.. practice makes ...), and watching him wade through the minefield with nary a scratch, it is usually quite impressive when things start getting ugly on there.

Lets just say he's the good cop, but at least I am no longer a prisoner......

All I DO know, is what went on over there, was total bullshit.

jvillas
05-20-2007, 08:11 PM
Hi muzz, I agree with you in total. While I refuse to post on avs I do regularly visit and read many of the messages. I read then saw the disappearing Ascend thread, and the closing of the other. The administering of the speaker forum is quite poor. I will in the future watch for your posts. Stay Cool

muzz
05-20-2007, 08:16 PM
I actually stopped posting there for awhile, they actually banned me(3 days- like I was a HS kid... good grief) for joking around with Mark Schifter(?).
It was CLEARLY a joke, it was NOT obscene either.
He even told me later, that he knew it was a joke, and that HE laughed........

Their excuse?
Derailing threads, and something like rude remarks.....

Lame

jvillas
05-20-2007, 08:53 PM
My point exactly.

curtis
05-20-2007, 08:54 PM
Please...no praise for me. I get as upset as others, and I have lost it a couple times.

The thing with AVS is that there is not someone watching the threads full time, and when something is reported, the mods do not usually read through the whole thread.

The forums all have their host of characters, some that I am highly suspicious of(and I am sure some are very suspicious of me), some that are just flat out strange.....and everything in between.

Ascend puts out great product, no advertising, and lets the products do the talking. Because of this, people think the forums are used for the marketing, and in a way, they are....you voice an opinion there....if the speakers we not any good, none of us would be praising them.

In a way, I equate it to how I was brought up playing tennis, and sports in general.....you leave it all on the field/court. No trash talk, if you think you can take me, I want to see it. If you beat me...great....you can gloat all you want, doesn't bother me. If I kick your ass, I say nothing afterwards. Well, among friends, we may have a friendly discussion or two.

I try to follow that example. I would much rather have someone come over to my place to listen to the speaker and make up their own minds. Listen, listen, listen......compare, compare, compare.

hmmm...does that make sense?

muzz
05-20-2007, 09:03 PM
EXACTLY, a COUPLE of times......
Considering the amount of times I see folks throw lil jabs at ya(snide/veiled comments, underhanded bullshit), like your some kind of shill, I consider that nothing...

Eddie Horton
05-21-2007, 05:16 AM
I don't understand how John (Alimental) gets to say whatever he wants, derail as many threads about products that are beneath him and that he'll never listen to or buy as he wants, and nothing is said by the mods. He's a retailer and probably has received a good bit of free business from the folks on AVS, so I don't get it. There are plenty of products that just don't do it for me, but I'd rather spend my time talking about the things that do. Why do some of us feel the need to "protect" other people from enjoying whatever they want, even if we think it's foolish or there's something better out there? Ok, rant over.

Quinn
05-21-2007, 09:29 AM
I admire curtis ablility to handle with skill the avs forum


Me too.

I took a long break from there and it is apparent that I need a longer one as I keep getting into it with the same people over the same things.

muzz
05-21-2007, 02:30 PM
Me too.

I took a long break from there and it is apparent that I need a longer one as I keep getting into it with the same people over the same things.


Yep....different day, same story... whatever.......

muzz
05-21-2007, 02:56 PM
I see ANOTHER Sierra thread got canned...... this is retarded....

Take a look around at how many This Vs That are on there......

I guess the reasoning this time, is something like:
"A thousand people don't have them yet, and this is a support forum".....
"When 1000 prs have shipped, we will allow a comparison"

Outright pathetic.....

jvillas
05-21-2007, 03:34 PM
I see ANOTHER Sierra thread got canned...... this is retarded....

Take a look around at how many This Vs That are on there......

I guess the reasoning this time, is something like:
"A thousand people don't have them yet, and this is a support forum".....
"When 1000 prs have shipped, we will allow a comparison"

Outright pathetic.....


Hi Muzz, I was not aware of this one I'll have alook.

muzz
05-21-2007, 03:47 PM
Hi Muzz, I was not aware of this one I'll have alook.


Grandarf said he started a comparison thread ( in the Sierra thread overthere), he linked to it..
That thread doesn't exist...........

jvillas
05-21-2007, 03:50 PM
Grandarf said he started a comparison thread ( in the Sierra thread overthere), he linked to it..
That thread doesn't exist...........


Yes, found it.

davef
05-21-2007, 05:02 PM
Hi Guys,

I am not really sure what or why this is happening. Seems almost like we are being unfairly discriminated against (I wonder why :rolleyes: ). Speaker comparisons are done all the time.

The performance of the Sierra speaks for itself and I am confident against it being compared to any bookshelf loudpspeaker at any price... that being said, the guys at AVS have there reasons and I ask that you respect them.

It is David Bott's forum and there is a reason it is the largest A/V forum on the internet... While I don't necessarily agree with what is happening, it is OK -- obviously, the AVS forum staff know what they are doing and know how to run a great forum. Please respect them --- I have shared correspondance with Mr. Bott and I understand his points.

Thanks for your time...

Dread Pirate Robert
05-22-2007, 12:19 AM
I am not really sure what or why this is happening. Seems almost like we are being unfairly discriminated against (I wonder why :rolleyes: ). Speaker comparisons are done all the time.

I can understand the position of the forum owner, but more generally, it is an aspect of human nature to want to bring down what others build up. Everyone has a unique view of the world, and what might be genuine enthusiasm on the part of one person could be perceived as hyperbole or delusion by another, and what some people recognize as confidence could be seen as arrogance or smugness by others. To some extent, how far one has come and the impact they've made can be gauged by the degree of polarization of opinion both for and against. In other words, you know you've made your mark when some people love your work while others feel increasing resentment toward it. I guess it's sort of a Yin-Yang kind of thing...maybe.... :)

In any case, what separates the contenders from the pretenders is commitment to doing what one knows is right, regardless of what people say. Clearly, there is much universal enlightenment to be gained from contemplating forum discussions about the virtues of speakers and audio purity. May we all ascend to aural tranquility, and achieve soundness of mind, soundness of spirit, and most important of all, soundness of sound. Bless you all, my children. :p

Quinn
05-22-2007, 01:35 AM
Hi Guys,

I am not really sure what or why this is happening. Seems almost like we are being unfairly discriminated against (I wonder why :rolleyes: ).

You have just taken away the two areas your competitors use to market against you; looks and bass extension. You raised the bar, again, for quality of parts at a price point too. Then you added a 7 year, parts and labor, warranty. The reactions are not surprising.

clarke68
05-22-2007, 01:52 PM
the AVS forum staff know what they are doing and know how to run a great forum.With this I respectfully disagree...I find the violent fanboyism over there makes it one of the most loathsome audio boards on the 'net. I seldom visit, and when I do I usually leave mad.

I shouldn't be too hard on them, I did learn about Ascend Acoustics at AVS, so I have someone over there to thank for that!

I applaud you for the class & tact with which you handle yourself over there...seems like you need rhinoceros skin to run an ID audio company!

jvillas
05-22-2007, 04:52 PM
Is there an alternative forum? Clearly right hear at Ascend Acoustics our forum is the best place to discuss the Sierra. I just got back from the AVS forum and while reading through the Sierra thread I asked myself Why is this discussion taking place here and not at the Ascend forum? Some interesting stuff is being talked about. Maybe we should have our own dedicated Sierra topic heading discussion and support on all things Sierra. Of course this is my opinion and I hope worth consideration.

I understand the need for Ascends to be on the Avs forum. It is well established, huge, and offers tremendous exposure for Ascend, and if I am correct it is also free.

I think sometimes whether people who post on AVS even know that Ascend has its own forum with a highly knowledgeable, enthusiastic, and very friendly membership. Who are ready and willing to discuss, help and assist in all things Audio, video ,and even beyond.

davef
05-22-2007, 07:07 PM
I applaud you for the class & tact with which you handle yourself over there...seems like you need rhinoceros skin to run an ID audio company!

Thanks Clarke -- to be honest, I definitely do NOT have rhinoceros skin. Much of what goes on drives me crazy and gets to me more than it probably should. Some of the accusations are so far from the truth that it is laughable, other times they downright offend and really bother me. Often I tell my wife that I just can't take it anymore. The people who criticize don't know me, know nothing about how I live or how hard I work. Thank god for the kids --- I can have the worst day imaginable and after 5 minutes with Matt and Nicole, I could care less... :)

BGHD
05-27-2007, 10:19 AM
I don't understand how John (Alimental) gets to say whatever he wants, derail as many threads about products that are beneath him and that he'll never listen to or buy as he wants, and nothing is said by the mods. He's a retailer and probably has received a good bit of free business from the folks on AVS, so I don't get it. There are plenty of products that just don't do it for me, but I'd rather spend my time talking about the things that do. Why do some of us feel the need to "protect" other people from enjoying whatever they want, even if we think it's foolish or there's something better out there? Ok, rant over.
Agreed. He (she?) floats like a black cloud over many threads in AVS. Unfortunately, people always take his (her?) bait and threads spiral into smack-talking & chest-thumping. He's like the kid that shows up at a birthday and ruins all the fun. Most trolls seem to come and go, but he (she?) just doesn't seem to go away.

nguay
05-27-2007, 01:08 PM
Agreed. He (she?) floats like a black cloud over many threads in AVS. Unfortunately, people always take his (her?) bait and threads spiral into smack-talking & chest-thumping. He's like the kid that shows up at a birthday and ruins all the fun. Most trolls seem to come and go, but he (she?) just doesn't seem to go away.


One problem is, people always seem to take offense to anything that doesn't agree with their setup or views. His top whatever reasons threads had people mad/offended because he used the word "compromised." My setup is "compromised" but I use room treatments and deal with it the best I can. I don't get mad about it. I just continue to enjoy my setup. He may go overboard and he's definitely not p.c., but you're right, and it's how people choose to react that starts the spiraling downward.

I don't know him personally and have never really spoken with him, but will be meeting him soon when I bring my 340se's to his shop. Should be a good time and it will be interesting to hear what he has to say. Good or bad, I'll just keep enjoying my speakers.

Dread Pirate Robert
05-27-2007, 01:30 PM
Most trolls seem to come and go, but he (she?) just doesn't seem to go away.

Maybe it's a succession of different trolls of unusual size who assume the name in order to carry on the tradition. You see, the name is the important thing for inspiring the necessary indignation. I mean, to take a similar example, no one would surrender to the Dread Pirate Westley. :p

BGHD
05-27-2007, 01:36 PM
One problem is, people always seem to take offense to anything that doesn't agree with their setup or views. His top whatever reasons threads had people mad/offended because he used the word "compromised." My setup is "compromised" but I use room treatments and deal with it the best I can. I don't get mad about it. I just continue to enjoy my setup. He may go overboard and he's definitely not p.c., but you're right, and it's how people choose to react that starts the spiraling downward.

I don't know him personally and have never really spoken with him, but will be meeting him soon when I bring my 340se's to his shop. Should be a good time and it will be interesting to hear what he has to say. Good or bad, I'll just keep enjoying my speakers.
That's a good attitude. Well, hopefully he is a good guy, he's probably just not very PC on some threads/forums I guess. I've read he's quite helpful to customers interested in demoing products he sells.