The new CMT-340c bad review

[curtis]

Pretty interesting. And he is going to try Rockets, which do not have any reviews on AudioReview. One bad review out of 5 does not mean much.

-curtis

[december11]

ummm...M T M...lobing...Rocket lover...

Wouldn't that just be Mad Dog from the Rocket board spewing his propaganda?

[X52]

[:D]I had the same thougths but I also made me think that meybe it had some validity. I'm going to order the ELT tonight and hear for myself.

JH

[curtis]

are you going to order the mains as well as the center? Would love to know your thoughts of the ELT mains compared to the CBM-170 as well.

-curtis

[Ben_Wood]

I would be much more likely to believe the first review (Bassnbrim), it seems like that guy really has his act together! ([:D]) Seriously, speakers are so subjective that you can't expect a particular model to please everyone. Like Curtis said, "One bad review out of 5 does not mean much".

[davef]

Everyone is certainly entitled to draw their own conclusions. However, it is a bit premature to assume that the review he left is indeed legitimate.

I find it quite bizarre that this "customer" was so turned off by our speaker that he elected to sell it to his "friend" and take a loss rather than return it for full refund? He also assumes that there is nothing wrong with the speaker where it is possible that he received a defective unit.

I will say that at this point in time, we do not know who this "reviewer" is nor do we have any correspondence from any of our customers even closely resembling the complaints he posted. I personally spent half the day researching who this person might be, with absolutely no results. I ask that if the person who left that review is reading this, please contact me directly to arrange for return and full refund of the speaker in question. Or, at least let us try and determine if something is wrong. Please call me directly at (310) 719-9786.

I can say with much honesty that we have already sold a much larger quantity of CMT-340c centers than we ever expected. The feedback we have received is overwhelmingly positive and the satisfaction rate is even higher than our renowned 170s. We have NEVER received a complaint even remotely similar to what this "reviewer" is claiming....

Thanks for ALL your support!



Good Sound To You!

David Fabrikant
www.ascendacoustics.com

[X52]

I emailed this person as soon as I read his review, before I posted this thread. I asked him what his thoughts on the CBM-170'S are since he stated he got them together.

I have yet to hear back from him.

David, Why don't you try reachinging him on the his email address in Audioreview?

JH

[X52]

BTW I've decided to hold off on the ELT. It was $30 to ship witch isn't that bad but when considering spending about $60 either way I decided made me stop to think about it more. I don't want to spend that $60 but for the right speaker I will. I did have some concerns over timbering with my Acsend mains. David didn't think it was a good idea not to match. So in conclution I decided to have a good listen to the 340 and if I'm not totally pleased I'll order the ELT then make my final.
BTW David's new post on lobing was very helpfull and reasured me in my decision. [^]

JH

[davef]

Thanks for emailing this person.

We have indeed emailed him through the AudioReview website. Like yourself, we have not received any reply. I have contacted AudioReview management and I hope they will attempt to contact this person. They are the only ones who have his "real" email address.

We have had many similar reviews left for our CBM-170s. Upon investigation, the reviews were removed because no contact was made with the reviewer (fake reviews). However, this process takes time while in the meantime our reputation is hurt.

We are a growing small business and we try to stay out of all the internet hype machines. Our customers are known to be friendly, helpful, and brutally honest, similar to how I try to represent Ascend in the general public. I can tell you it is not easy. I recently read a thread where a respected audio enthusiast recently and publicly called our CBM-170s "FUGLY". Nice... huh? Sure, they are not for everyone's taste, but to describe them so eloquently in a public manner? I guess since so few loudspeakers can even compare soundwise at their price point, something extremely negative had to be said.


Good Sound To You!

David Fabrikant
www.ascendacoustics.com

[pegleg]

Dave,

My wife and I love the sound from the 170s and subwoofer. But there are "additional costs": all the CDs and DVDs we are buying now!

I would tend to doubt this last reviewer, since the comments were opposite of the other comments, regarding clarity. Sounds like, if legit, a bad unit. But the lack of contact with you does indicate a fake review: no one who buys via the internet suddenly "drops out" of the web process.

Pegleg

[pegleg]

If anyone reads French, try this site:
http://www.dslvalley.com/forum/forum_read.php3?fqID=1961&ID=0100

I searched for "musix74" on vivisimo.com and found "musix74@aol.com" as well as a few threads, all in French.

Pegleg

[X52]

<font face="Georgia"></font id="Georgia">It's so easy to love this company. I realy appreciate David's honesty and openess about Acsend. I have never worke with a company that I appreciated more. I find the more I know about Acsend the more I like them as a whole. Is there anywere you can find customer service as good as here? I've never heard of it.
I often get fooled into thinking I've bought a $2000 speaker when I sit back, close my eyes and just melt into the music.
When I deal with customer servise or read about Ascends customer service I get fooled into thinking I bought a $20,000 speaker.
I tell my wife all the time in complete amazment "I cant believe I pay $350 for both these speakers!"
Anyway I'd like to puplicly than David for all the ward work and graciousness that he runs Ascends with. Also knowing that any great leader is only sucseccfull with those unsung heros I'd like to thank the Ascend team for all thier dedication. We are blessed!
Thank you.

JH

[december11]

Dave, I can't 100% for sure...but I believe this is Mad Dog from the Rocket Forum and Avsforum.

He is constantly hyping Rockets everywhere.
He has made multiple posts in other forums putting down the CMT center, describing M T M configuration and how they cause lobing. Also, he always shares his opinion that Ascends are Fugly.
The fact that he is pushing Rockets would almost cement his identity.
He does not own Ascends.

[azanon]

My review of the 340C is up now - he got bumped :-)

Azanon

[Quinn]

While, Mad Dog's fevor towards all things Onix/Rockets has IMO increased. I really doubt he would do such a thing. He frequently posts that the Ascend 170s are a great value. Now as for someone cutting and pasting from one of his posts is quite possible.

Your feelings toward Mad Dog reminds me of some emails Curtis and I traded right before Smokey with Curtis' assistance got this forum on-line. Those e-mails were how to keep this place and our posts on other boards helpful and informative regarding Ascend w/o creating any backlash like the Rockets' crowds have done a number of times.

If you were reading AVSforum previous to about six months ago you likely saw how much time MLS of AV123 spent defending positions that Rocket-heads had put him in. Also, the number of threads locked down because of the firestorm that occurred anytime a poster questioned a Rockets product or MLS was pretty high. I personally think the av123 forum came about because it was easier for MLS to give the Rocket/Onix/Perpetual Technologies fans a place to post and pat each on the back w/o causing an uproar on one the boards, then it was for him to spend so much time defending himself and his products on other boards. Again, these were positions that Rocket fans had managed to put him in not anything he'd done himself. Avsforum was the second home of the Rocketeers. I believe they,the rocket crowd, settled in there after getting tired of the hostilities at Harmonic Discord after much of the same stuff.

It was not all their fault but how you respond to trolls, and there were many, effects perception of the company in addition to the poster.

And now I can't stand to go on av123 community and only do so to checkout a post referenced from another board. I still have a negative view of the Rocketeers to this day and am so sick of them I'll likely never buy an av123 product. BTW-- I do recommend the ELT to those whose parameters it fits. I can also vouch for the great CS at av123 as I bought speaker cable from there before I got sick of it all.

[davef]

I doubt as well that it was Mad Dog. I met him and his lovely wife at the Onix room (no surprise there?) at CES. While he is very vocal about his support for everything AV123, I got the impression that he is also honest.

This bad review issue has thus been resolved. Neither Ascend nor ConsumerReview were able to establish any contact with this supposed customer. I personally attempted contact several times in order to offer a full refund for the return of the speakers. As I expected, I did not receive a reply and ConsumerReview made several attempts as well.

It is one thing to share your opinion about a product, provided you own or auditioned the product. It is an entirely different matter to shamelessly plug a competing product without ANY cause or justification other than to damage a product or company's reputation.


Good Sound To You!

David Fabrikant
www.ascendacoustics.com

[davef]

Just a brief note to thank ALL of you for your kind words and support. Comments like yours are what motivates me to continue to introduce top quality products!


Good Sound To You!

David Fabrikant
www.ascendacoustics.com

[december11]

Not to push this any further...

If I'm wrong, then I apologize. But here is Mad Dog's post from the av123.com forum...
He rips the 340 exactly like the audio review forum.
Notice he uses all the same terms from the bad review on Audio REview..."lobing", "MTM", "FUGLY", "Rockets" are better, etc.

Judge for yourself

Excerpt:
now curtis was kind enough to bring the 340 center by to a/b with the ELT center. while curtis preferred the 340 center over the ELT center due to the extra bass extension, we both agreed that the ELT center was more forward in sound and presentation. i liked the forward nature of the ELT center as it projected vocals better which is what i look for in a good center channel. the 340C by contrast sounded like the vocals were coming from inside the cabinet. not something that i like in my center channels. i attributed the differences to the respective speaker driver arrangements. the ascend uses a MTM (mid tweeter mid) driver arrangement which has been criticized for lobing effects when used in a horizontal position. this lobing effect primarily detracts from the clarity in the mids and highs, most of the frequencies used to reproduce voices. the ELT center uses a tweeter over mid with 2 woofers on either side of the tweeter and mid. this driver arrangement allows for superior clarity and focus in a center channel. if you look at most of the excellent performing high dollar center channels such as the Aerial Acoustics CC5 ($3,500) and CC3B ($1,600), the Revel C30, C32, C50 and Voice, and the Rocket RSC-200, you'll see that the ELT center borrows the same driver arrangement. in a stacked comparison, I also found that the ELT center was not only clearer sounding but also cleaner sounding able to be driven to higher volume levels (95+dBs) without compressing and falling apart. i find these traits VERY important in a center channel. for me, the ELT clearly outperformed the Ascend 340C.

now as far as looks are concerned...i have never been one to hide my feeling here...i've said it 1000 times and i'll say it again...the shape of the CBM-170s are flat out FUGLY! yes, that's right...FUGLY! they are squat shaped rectangular boxes that can easily be mistaken as squares at a glance. finish is solid but there is nothing special about molded black vinyl...for me, they definitely received demerit points for WAF aka appearance...the ELTs in contrast are much more attractive finished in real birch wood veneer stained in cherry.

my scorecard:
170s vs. ELT sats: nod goes to 170s
340C vs ELT-C: ELT center by no small margin. yeah, the 340C extends lower w/ bass, but it gave up alot in clarity and forwardness as well as taking a back seat to the ELT center when being driven hard.
looks and cabinet quality: ELTs by a landslide. no comparison. while curtis and i don't see eye to eye on everything Onix and Ascend related, this is something even he won't and can't deny.

[curtis]

FWIW:

Mad Dog came over to my place last night to pick up the pair of ACI Sapphires I had on demo. Ofcourse we started conversing on speakers and CES. Two or three times he commented on the CMT-340, "that is a damn good speaker."

-curtis

[azanon]

Well if it was him, he "demoed" the speakers, hence the review should have stayed. Come to think of it, i dont recall when i signed up at audioreview.com any agreement that mandated I have to respond to any emails for my opinion to stand.

[davef]

Azanon,

I agree... if that review was from Mad Dog (which I doubt) than the review might be legit. However, AudioReview is very specific that the "Reviewer should own the product or have extensive experience (several hours) with the given product. Short tests and auditions should not be posted."

From my understanding, Mad Dog does not own the speakers in question, nor did he spend several hours auditioning.

Besides, Mad Dog easily admitted in a previous review that the CMT-340 was a better center than the Rocket RSC100. He would not give the 340 center such a low score. He told me personally at CES how much he likes the 340 speakers.

If reviews were not policed to some degree at AudioReview, the entire site would quickly fall apart. Think about it, what would stop one manufacturer from posting negative reviews about another? It would be a disaster... The site would soon lose all of it's advertising revenue.


Good Sound To You!

David Fabrikant
www.ascendacoustics.com

[azanon]

OK i guess i didnt remember that exactly right then. I'm not real passionate about this issue in this case anyway, since I have heard the 340c for myself and find it to be wonderful per my own experience.

But I guess I would be equally concerned about audioreview falling apart for exactly the opposite reason you stated - them being potentially bullied into removing every negative post from either 1. an influential person from the company of question 2. Someone funding the site by ANY company, not implying Ascend here on either point. I guess if it were up to me as a consumer of the site, I'd probably prefer taking all the good with all the bad as opposed to selective removal of opinions by either audioreview.com or a complaintant.

[davef]

Azanon,

I do understand your concerns and AudioReview has a strict policy regarding this matter. If a consumer leaves a review, and it meets all of the guidelines set forth, under NO circumstances would that review be removed (unless at the reviewer's request). This benefits you, the consumer, by knowing that the reviews left are from real customers. Would the site offer any usefullness at all if all you read were non legitimate reviews?

I know of no legitimate negative review that has ever been removed. We did not ask for the review to be removed, we asked for an investigation into the review. And, in doing so, we hoped to contact this customer in order to offer him a refund. AudioReview fully investigated for over 1 week, which resulted in the conclusion that the review was not legitimate.

FYI, we have had many 5 out of 5 reviews removed from our CBM-170 that were determined NOT to be legitimate.

All in all, this is for the consumers benefit.


Good Sound To You!

David Fabrikant
www.ascendacoustics.com

[azanon]

That's sounds completely fair. You did nothing I wouldn't do in the same position.

Audioreview and you guys probably got no resonse for the following reason: Chances are, he probably used his "spam" email at the contact address. Probably a lot of folks are like me - they have 2 email addresses: one that only goes to friends and family, and the other you use at sites likely to add you to chain and or solicitation emails. The latter is rarely, if ever, checked cause it only serves the purposes of allowing you to sign up for stuff without the negatives of doing so (being solicited). Well of course he would have to check it to enable the account, but not anymore afterwards.

You should see how many offers i have to enlarge my penis or buy viagra at my .hotmail email. I swear i'm not looking at porn either.

[davef]

Spam has become a nightmare for businesses. I get close to 200 junk emails per day!

While your scenario is certainly possible, the more likely event is that it is simply just what it appears, a bogus review in order to plug a competitors product. You see, we know who all of our customers are, especially who own the CMT-340 since it is quite new. This is a major advantage of selling direct.

This reviewer elected to "sell" his horrible sounding speaker instead of returning it for full refund? A bit strange, don't you think? We honestly don’t know who the reviewer is or how he obtained the loudspeakers. We took many steps to find out at as well, including reviewing all sales of CMT-340 centers.

It is a shame that things like this do occur, but the positive aspects of the Internet far outweigh the negative.



Good Sound To You!

David Fabrikant
www.ascendacoustics.com