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azanon
07-13-2006, 08:09 AM
What crossover would you guys recommend for a pair of 340SE's and a VTF-2? My H/K receiver has 20hz increments selectable for each speaker group.

I was thinking either 60hz or 40hz. 60hz would guarantee that the 340SE's dont go below the +/3 3db point, but 40hz would extend the 340SE's to their limits, but possibly opening a small sound "hole" in the 45-40hz range.

Azanon

PLincoln
07-13-2006, 08:29 AM
What crossover would you guys recommend for a pair of 340SE's and a VTF-2? My H/K receiver has 20hz increments selectable for each speaker group.

I was thinking either 60hz or 40hz. 60hz would guarantee that the 340SE's dont go below the +/3 3db point, but 40hz would extend the 340SE's to their limits, but possibly opening a small sound "hole" in the 45-40hz range.

Azanon

80hz is the more generally accepted xover point...try them all see which one sounds better to you.

shane55
07-13-2006, 08:33 AM
I have done quite a bit of experimenting with the 340's and x-over settings. Remember, room acoustics will play some part in your settings (YMMV, and all), but with the 340 Classics I had my system (with the SVS PB110-ISD) set to 80hz. 60 did not work. When listening to 2-ch stereo, I would occasionally play the speakers with full range... no sub.

When I got the 340SE's (LCR) and put the 340 Classics in the rear, I thought that I would be able to drop to 60hz for everything (HT and music). No go.

I'm staying at 80. It gives music and soundtracks more sonority and impact. While I haven't run the full set of tests yet (I've only had them a month... and things have been kinda crazy), I plan to check things out in more detail very soon. But for now... it's 80hz.:)

Cheers

shane

azanon
07-13-2006, 08:56 AM
So is it a case where technically the 340 can do 45-80hz, but when pitted against a bass specialist (ie: a HSU sub), the 340 is no match for it?

My only concern with the 80hz (or higher) setting is that I dont want any bass that has directionality associated with it, coming out of my sub. I watch a lot of movies, and if an explosion is off to my front left, that's where i'd prefer to hear it. 80hz bass might have some directionality associated with it? (or no).

My preference with bass though is that i DO NOT like a boomy sound. I certainly like to hear as much of the sound range as possible, and dont even mind a chest thud from a bass shot (like those cannon balls in master and command), but i dont want my system "booming", even if I were to put a hip-hop CD in. I just like the bass to be there; but not dominant. This being said, the volume dial on my VTF-2 is relatively close to minimum, and is also set to maximum extension (just one port open).

Jonnyozero3
07-13-2006, 09:49 AM
I could be wrong, but one thing to keep in mind is that the LFE track (different from the bass managed signal from the mains) goes up to 120hz, so you may get something localizable regardless (setup permitting, of course).

For example, I have my mains and center crossed at 80hz, so my HO gets everything 80 and under, but it also gets the up to 120Hz LFE (.1) track. Sometimes I can almost hear a male voice back by the sub, but that's only when I put my head near it and pay attention to it.

shane55
07-13-2006, 10:44 AM
azanon... often room acoustics (sub placement, etc) can have more to do with the sound than the xover.

Boom is often caused by placement.... possibly exacerbated by room acoustics and then, maybe xover and other settings. Once my sub was set up well, I had no issues with boom regardless of xover settings.

I understand localization of sound and be aware that even at a 60hz xover, there is roll-off. It’s not a wall or a harsh cut-off. You’ll get frequencies well over 80 or 100hz even with a 60hz xover. Minimized, to be sure, but those listening for localization will find it. At 80hz I have had few issues with localization.

cheers

shane

curtis
07-13-2006, 10:51 AM
I ran my 340SE's fullrange a couple of weeks ago for a week...sounded great. WIth the sub and two-channel music, 60hz sounds best.

That said, if I had that multi-crossover capability, in my room, I would probably end up using 60hz for the L/C/R, and 80hz for my 170SE surrounds. I'd probably experiment with 60hz globally too.

azanon
07-13-2006, 11:36 AM
I'll experiment, but i definitely want to try the 60hz first (on the 340se's). I can tell from the speaker charts the 340se isnt breaking a sweat at 60hz, and since there could be some directionality associated with bass within 60-80z, that's a reason to keep it going to the L/R.

I'm glad one of you mentioned LFE can go as high as 120hz. I just got my avr240 in yesterday, and i think i set the sub to 100hz crossover (because i think that is the highest frequency its spec'ed for), but maybe it wouldnt hurt to set it to 120hz to capture everything.

PLincoln
07-13-2006, 11:43 AM
I'll experiment, but i definitely want to try the 60hz first (on the 340se's). I can tell from the speaker charts the 340se isnt breaking a sweat at 60hz, and since there could be some directionality associated with bass within 60-80z, that's a reason to keep it going to the L/R.

I'm glad one of you mentioned LFE can go as high as 120hz. I just got my avr240 in yesterday, and i think i set the sub to 100hz crossover (because i think that is the highest frequency its spec'ed for), but maybe it wouldnt hurt to set it to 120hz to capture everything.

at around 100hz or so you can start to hear localization of the sub. I would not recommend going over 100hz on the AVR XO...of course your ears may vary. The only real way to determine the best XO point is to use TrueRTA and take some measurements...this will show you the interaction of the mains and sub and what settings work best. You can't just rely on FR charts to determine the XO...lots of room interaction going on as well.

MikeAndAnnie
07-13-2006, 01:26 PM
I am not familiar with your particular receiver, but I believe that in most receivers, all LFE signals go to the sub, regardless of the crossover setting.
The crossover generally affects what bass signals go to the sub, and what frequencies go to those speakers set to Small.

Jonnyozero3
07-13-2006, 02:15 PM
On the HK AVRs you can change the LFE crossover independently of the other crossovers...so if you only want below 100 or something, you can do it. But, then you lose the information from 100-120 as I don't think it gets sent to the mains.

I could be wrong...I need to check on this.

PLincoln
07-13-2006, 02:21 PM
if you disable the LFE channel then any info on that channel is lost and not redirected to the mains...the bass management system is such that it redirects bass from the mains to the subwoofer. the LFE channel is a spearate entity...OFF means OFF.

curtis
07-13-2006, 02:51 PM
if you disable the LFE channel then any info on that channel is lost and not redirected to the mains...the bass management system is such that it redirects bass from the mains to the subwoofer. the LFE channel is a spearate entity...OFF means OFF.
Are you sure? I was under the impression that on at least some receivers that if you do not have a sub, the LFE channel is directed to the mains.

MikeAndAnnie
07-13-2006, 02:52 PM
That's what happens on my Onkyo - If no sub, the LFE is
redirected to the mains, and the mains are automatically
set to Large (and cannot be set to Small).

shane55
07-13-2006, 03:09 PM
Are you sure? I was under the impression that on at least some receivers that if you do not have a sub, the LFE channel is directed to the mains.
I believe this is the case with my Denon. It sets the spkrs to lg., and redirects the LFE to them.

shane

Eddie Horton
07-13-2006, 05:04 PM
If you're going to use them for HT and plan on pushing the envelope, I'd go no lower than 80Hz. The hardest thing to reproduce at high levels is bass, and you'd be surprised how much info below the crossover point reaches the speakers if you've never tested it before. If you listen at lower volumes, say -20 from calibrated ref level, then 60 shouldn't be a problem theoretically with the 340's. As Shane said, though, you just need to play around with crossover points and speaker and sub positioning to see what works best for you. I do 80 and have no problem listening at -10 from ref level with my 340 L/C/R Classics, 170 surrounds, and VTF-3MkII sub. I don't go any louder, though, for fear of hurting something.

azanon
07-14-2006, 06:55 AM
I just got my new H/K in yesterday; and on that receiver, i can tell you i won't being going much below -10db on it either just because i want my ears to last me a lifetime.

Back on point though, you said some information below the crossover gets through; and that's why i thought 60hz would be a great choice for the 340SE because those are spec'ed for ~ 45hz so there's plenty of room for "spillover"; so to speak.

............

Ok i have one other question about my H/K receiver i just got in two days ago. The page on large vs small speaker setting, and the independent crossover settings is confusing. In one paragrah, it says if your speakers cant go below 200hz, then choose small (suggesting that the small setting is only for those cube type speakers). On the next page it says something about if you have "tower or full range speakers", the independent crossovers are used for choosing the specific crossover point. So both of these statements suggest to me that I should choose "large" for all of my speakers if i want any sound below 200hz to reach the individual speakers.

Then in another part (where it describes the surround backs) it says that choosing the "small" setting and choosing an independent crossover point will have the sound above the crossover point going to the individual speaker, thus suggesting that i should choose "small" instead of large.

So i'm confused as hell whether i'm supposed to choose "large" or "small" to get, say, 60hz-20,000 going to my mains, and 60hz-20 going to my sub. This section sould be re-written, because ive read it a few times now and it isn't clear to me and/or sections seem to be contradictory.

PLincoln
07-14-2006, 07:41 AM
i should have said that if you disable the LFE and have to sub set to YES...then any LFE info is discarded and all you get is the redirected bass from the mains on the sub.

if you set LFE to off and sub to NO, then all the info is redirected to the mains.

hope that clears up any confusion from my last post

Eddie Horton
07-14-2006, 05:21 PM
I just got my new H/K in yesterday; and on that receiver, i can tell you i won't being going much below -10db on it either just because i want my ears to last me a lifetime.

Back on point though, you said some information below the crossover gets through; and that's why i thought 60hz would be a great choice for the 340SE because those are spec'ed for ~ 45hz so there's plenty of room for "spillover"; so to speak.

............

Ok i have one other question about my H/K receiver i just got in two days ago. The page on large vs small speaker setting, and the independent crossover settings is confusing. In one paragrah, it says if your speakers cant go below 200hz, then choose small (suggesting that the small setting is only for those cube type speakers). On the next page it says something about if you have "tower or full range speakers", the independent crossovers are used for choosing the specific crossover point. So both of these statements suggest to me that I should choose "large" for all of my speakers if i want any sound below 200hz to reach the individual speakers.

Then in another part (where it describes the surround backs) it says that choosing the "small" setting and choosing an independent crossover point will have the sound above the crossover point going to the individual speaker, thus suggesting that i should choose "small" instead of large.

So i'm confused as hell whether i'm supposed to choose "large" or "small" to get, say, 60hz-20,000 going to my mains, and 60hz-20 going to my sub. This section sould be re-written, because ive read it a few times now and it isn't clear to me and/or sections seem to be contradictory.

60Hz is a good choice, but only if you're not pushing it really hard. With a 60Hz crossover and a 12dB per octave slope on that crossover, playing pink noise at 90dB would have the speaker trying to play a 30Hz tone at 78dB. Try to play a movie with a lot of low frequency energy at ref levels, and you'll bottom that speaker. If you don't go really loud, it'll be fine. If you do, 80Hz or even 100Hz is not out of the question. And for the receiver, large means full range and no info redirected to the sub. Small means any info below what crossover point you choose will go to the sub. Your H/K allows you to pick different crossovers for different speaker sets. You could do "Small" and 60Hz for the front 3 and "Small" and 80Hz for the surrounds. Or, if you had true full range L/R speakers you could do "Large" and no crossover for the L/R, "Small" and 60Hz for the center and "Small" and 100Hz for the surrounds. Oh, the SE's may spec a -3 point around 45Hz in room, but that is with a 1w/1m measurement. If you pump a 50Hz tone through them at really high levels, you'll bottom them out. It's nothing that is wrong with the speaker, it's just the way it is designed and is the reason that speakers that'll do high levels from 20Hz to 20kHz will cost you upwards of 10k a pair. It's just something that needs to be considered when choosing a crossover point.

edit: Just thinking that a bass reflex speaker has a 24dB/octave roll off below tuning point, so couple that with a 12db/octave crossover from the processor or receiver and I don't know exactly how loud it would be trying to play a 30Hz tone with wide band pink noise at a 90dB volume setting. I'm not technical enough to wrap my brain around it and explain it properly. I do know that a lot of info leaks through and have confirmed this by playing increasingly lower sine waves with an 80Hz crossover and the sub turned off. Just trying to make a point that how loud you like to listen vs. the low bass capabilities of you speakers is something equally important to consider when choosing a crossover.

azanon
08-03-2006, 11:55 AM
So what is "really loud"? I dont own an SPL meter, but i do have a H/K receiver (AVR 140). For me, a sweet spot loud setting is when i set the receiver to -15db. Any louder than that, starts to hurt a little.

So, standing about 10 feet away from the speakers, what kind of decibels am i looking at with a -15db reading on my H/K receiver using Logic 7 (crossed over to a VTF-2 balanced with the speakers using the test tones)?

Azanon

curtis
08-03-2006, 11:59 AM
So what is "really loud"? I dont own an SPL meter, but i do have a H/K receiver (AVR 140). For me, a sweet spot loud setting is when i set the receiver to -15db. Any louder than that, starts to hurt a little.

So, standing about 10 feet away from the speakers, what kind of decibels am i looking at with a -15db reading on my H/K receiver using Logic 7 (crossed over to a VTF-2 balanced with the speakers using the test tones)?

Azanon
Every receiver is different, as is every room.....so you can't really guess. The -15dB number is arbitrary and does not correlate to any set power standard.

How do you calibrate your speakers without a meter?

azanon
08-03-2006, 12:14 PM
How do you calibrate your speakers without a meter?

By setting in the listening position using the test tones. Oddly enough, after i set the correct distances for my various speakers from the listening position (10 feet for front F/L, 6feet for surrounds), I didnt have to make any adjustments to the default sound level for each speaker. I can tell the difference between 1db of sound without much difficulty.

I imagine if i had an SPL meter, i might be off by up to 1db, but if i cant tell the difference using the white noise with my nakid ear, i dont really see how i can tell a difference listening to music either.

Now i will admit it is a lot more difficult for me to compare the white noise coming out of the sub. But since i dont like it too loud anyway, i'm perfectly fine with setting it to a level i'm comfortable with, and not necessarily balanced with the other speakers.
.....

I know every receiver is different, but i doubt the respective H/K receivers are that far off from each other. Even the ones having different wattage, "should" put out the same level at a particular setting. I would think the manufacturing process would ensure that they're all relatively comparable, at least for current year models (like AVR x40 series).

The main difference though would be the speakers, so i'm asking specifically for CBM-170s L/R, if anyone has a H/K and front CBM-170s. After this friday though, it'll be 340se's

curtis
08-03-2006, 12:43 PM
I think wattages would make a different. 1% of 70 watts is different than 1% of 50 watts. If the volume control has the same loudness for every model, that would mean the power output throughout the range of the control is the same.

I agree with you, the SPL meter is most useful for setting the sub.

azanon
08-03-2006, 01:26 PM
1% of 70 watts is different than 1% of 50 watts

Not near as much as those numbers might intuitively apply. Different by maybe 3db at most. As i'm sure you know, it takes 10 times the wattage to produce twice the volume of sound. But if i was guessing, I bet H/K did levelize the volumes even among those that have different wattage; just the higher wattage ones will go to a higher setting before clipping.

I"m just wanting a ballpark idea though.