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View Full Version : Squeezebox sound quality vs CD, and Panny XR55 info



shane55
05-18-2006, 08:37 AM
Aside from speakers, DAC's are the most important part of the digital audio chain. Never underestimate their effect on the sound... it's HUGE! :D

shane

Quinn
05-18-2006, 08:59 AM
No, I was using the analog connections to a NAD c372 in the shop. At home I also use analog connections to my Panny 55 right now; at the time of the Marantz vs. Sony ES test I was using NAD separates also with analog connections.


I didn't think to lend you the digital interconnect with the 563.

Eddie
05-18-2006, 09:02 AM
I didn't think to lend you the digital interconnect with the 563.

Not sure the NAD c372 in the shop would even have a digital connection. My NAD separates certainly don't.

curtis
05-18-2006, 10:06 AM
Not sure the NAD c372 in the shop would even have a digital connection. My NAD separates certainly don't.
It doesn't. Great integrated amp though....would be on my possibles list if I were to set-up a two-channel system.

Grayson73
05-25-2006, 12:23 PM
I am still blown away by TV and movie performance, but am not too impressed so far with CD music. It doesn't sound as full as I'd like even though it is very detailed. Seems like I'm missing good midrange/upper bass and highs are too bright.

I was testing with the Kelly Clarkson Breakaway CD and Clay Aiken's CD.

I have 340SEs across the front with SVS 25-31CS sub, Panasonic SA-XR50 (100hz crossover), and Sony DVP-NS75H.

Is the problem with:
1. The CD capabilities of the DVP-NS75H
2. The 100hz crossover and/or the Panasonic SA-XR50
3. CD quality of the CDs I tested
4. Something else

I tried stereo with sub, stereo full range without sub, and DTS Neo:6. Adjusting the bass helped a little bit, but I can only do that in stereo mode.

I think I'll eventually try the SA-XR57 to see if the combination of dual amping, 80hz crossover, and upgraded electronics (I assume) improve the sound quality.

Am I expecting too much out of the speakers?

shane55
05-25-2006, 12:35 PM
Grayson.
How are you feeding your receiver?
Analog or digital feeds (coax or Toslink) out of the DVD player?

shane

Grayson73
05-25-2006, 01:23 PM
Grayson.
How are you feeding your receiver?
Analog or digital feeds (coax or Toslink) out of the DVD player?

shane

Digital coax

rajacat
05-25-2006, 01:36 PM
Grayson,

I don't think the problem is with the Ascends but with the Panny. I had the XR55 and found it to be harsh and bright in the upper frequencies and lacking in impact in the lower regions. However, my XR55 did have nice imaging, was very quite and seemed to cast a large sound stage. The digital sheen, for me, was the last straw and I sold it and I am now looking for a new amp. Perhaps a tube preamp would take the hard edges off the Panny. Digital amps are still in their infancy and I think that, currently, there are better options in analogue receivers such as the Outlaw that may cost more but in the long run will provide you with more satisfaction. I am going the separates route and have started with the purchase of a tube preamp and am looking for a good traditional power amp. For home theater you are probably best going with a quality traditional AVR.

Raja

cyberbri
05-25-2006, 01:41 PM
I am still blown away by TV and movie performance, but am not too impressed so far with CD music. It doesn't sound as full as I'd like even though it is very detailed. Seems like I'm missing good midrange/upper bass and highs are too bright.

I was testing with the Kelly Clarkson Breakaway CD and Clay Aiken's CD.

I have 340SEs across the front with SVS 25-31CS sub, Panasonic SA-XR50 (100hz crossover), and Sony DVP-NS75H.

Is the problem with:
1. The CD capabilities of the DVP-NS75H
2. The 100hz crossover and/or the Panasonic SA-XR50
3. CD quality of the CDs I tested
4. Something else

I tried stereo with sub, stereo full range without sub, and DTS Neo:6. Adjusting the bass helped a little bit, but I can only do that in stereo mode.

I think I'll eventually try the SA-XR57 to see if the combination of dual amping, 80hz crossover, and upgraded electronics (I assume) improve the sound quality.

Am I expecting too much out of the speakers?

It could be that you need to get used to the more accurate sound of the Ascends...

But...

Concentrate on 2-channel, either with or without the sub, first. Your room and placement within the room will determine how the "sound" sounds by the team it bounces around in your room and reaches your ears.

Experiment with spacing from walls, distance between the speakers, amount of toe-in (straight at listening position, straight forward, or in-between), etc. Tweaking placement and positioning can make a WORLD of difference.

When setting up my 340SE mains the other night, I found that angling them a bit back towards straight back, away from straight at the LP (now they are aimed at a few feet ), sounded much better and improved the width of the soundstage.


Integrating them with the sub is another job that can take a little work but is well worth it.

Basically, my regimen, using Avia and an SPL meter, goes something like this:

1) Experiment with sub placement, using Avia's LFE Sweep to test sub response only. Move sub around until I find the flattest response (least amount of variation in volume as frequency changes). Even a movement of 3-6" can make a huge difference, both with regards to sub placement and mic placement/listening position.

2) Level-match with mains using per-channel sub tones on Avia (the flatter the sub's frequency response is, the easier it is to set the level because it doesn't jump around as much)

3) Tweak crossover setting and phase for left and right channels. Start with 0-degree phase and 80Hz crossover, run frequency sweep for left/right channel, note amount of variation (dips around crossover point and below). Switch phase setting on sub, run sweep again. Note which gives best response. Repeat for other speaker. If response is off in crossover point range, try another point (ie., 70, 90, or 100Hz) and re-do tests.

4) Verify level-match with new settings.

5) Repeat process from sub placement if results not satisfactory.

A $3K sub in an acoustically-bad spot in a room can sound boomy and horrible, while a $300 sub in a good spot in the same room can sound much smoother and more musical. Especially with bass, room acoustics and placement play a much more significant role in how a sub sounds, much more so than tiny (or even big) variations in quality between two subs.

If no matter what, you can't get satisfactory bass response (fairly flat FR), then it's time to look into some room treatments (bass traps), and or PEQ, like the $100 BFD (Behringer(sp?) Feedback Destroyer), to flatten out the response.

shane55
05-25-2006, 01:50 PM
Digital coax
Well there you have it...
You have just eliminated the possibility that it is inferior DAC's in the CD player.

It still may be the receiver contributing to the overall quality you are experiencing, but that should be minimal. I think Brad and jermy are right-on about it being just the difference between what you are used to and the clear neutrality of the Ascends.

In other threads this has been brought up and discussed to death, but a 'neutral' speaker is not what most people are used to listening to. There is inherent coloration in most speakers, whether it be lower-mids to give them 'warmth' or upper-mids to accentuate vocals. Ascends seem to be free of most of it. It is a very good thing, but might take a bit to get used to.

Also, for serious listening tests try sources that are not produced for low-end playback systems. These types of pop releases are EQ’d with inexpensive consumer stereos or iPods in mind. Play some of your CD’s of well-recorded and well-produced acoustic and/or classical to see how well these speakers produce good sound.

GI-GO (garbage in – garbage out).

At some point yes, a better receiver with adjustable x-over points will be important to get the most out of the Ascends.

Cheers and good luck.

shane

bikeman
05-25-2006, 01:55 PM
I don't think the problem is with the Ascends but with the Panny. Raja
It's fine that you express this opinion but it's not widely held. I, along with others on this Forum, have found the Panny to be an excellent match for the Ascends.
I think Brad has expressed what I feel is the best course of action.

David

rajacat
05-25-2006, 02:19 PM
Dave,

Of course, it is only my opinion but if you go to some other forums a common complaint issued by owners of the cheaper digital amps is the "digital sheen" which could even drive some to tubes. I think that it is wise to wait for the advanced technology involved in digital amps to mature for a couple more years to trickle down to mass marketed AVR's. However, there are some expensive digital separates that have been recieving very good reviews. Also there some economical DIY digital solutions that are making waves.

Raja

Grayson73
05-25-2006, 02:28 PM
Thanks for the responses. I think what I'm hearing is the same thing that Rajacat is hearing.

I will try what Cyberbri suggests. I have DVE and will try a frequency sweep just to make sure. Phase on my sub is currently set to 0.

I understand what everyone is saying and have no doubt that classical, jazz, and acoustic instruments will sound great. The problem is that I'm more into pop, rock, and R&B.

If you're saying that most of these mainstream CDs aren't recorded well, I suppose that means there's not much I can do.

I do think that the speakers are accurate so I thought it might be that the CD isn't being transferred to the speakers accurately. If it's a bad quality recording, I guess I can't do anything about it unless I want to 'color' the sound :D

Grayson73
05-25-2006, 02:45 PM
I just read the XR55 owner thread. It's comforting (and also depressing) that others are hearing the same thing I'm hearing with the XR50.

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=1554

I hope the XR57 is an improvement SQ wise compared to the XR50.

Supposedly, there aren't any receivers than can compete with these in the sub $300 category.

rajacat
05-25-2006, 03:13 PM
Greyson,

Try Audiogon for a quality used AVR. Here is a nice Pioneer...$275. Of course there is some risk buying online but I have had nothing but good luck. Check the seller's feedback.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?miscrcvr&1153334716

Raja

Quinn
05-25-2006, 03:52 PM
Try some analog interconnects and see if your like your CDP's DACs better. I've heard the XR-55 and I too think it is bright.

cyberbri
05-25-2006, 04:00 PM
You might look into a refurb HK receiver from Harmanaudio. I picked up a refurb AVR330 for under $300 including shipping last year. Ascend also has new HK receivers for sale on this website.

One thing I really like about the HKs that pertains to speaker setup is the great bass management features. I have crossover points of 40, 60, 80, 100, 120 and 200Hz (independent per fronts, center, surrounds), and speaker settings and channel levels are independent per audio sound mode. I really like the remote, too, especially much much better than the Panasonic remote on my father's 2ndary system.

Looking at the S&V review of the Panny XR-70, I compared it to their review of the Harmy-Kardy AVR330. I posted the following on AVS, but I'll post it here as well:


HK 330 review
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=577&page_number=1

Panny XR-70 review
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=806


Here are the technical specs for the HK 330 - note this is rated 55x7 or 65x2 into 8 ohms:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/322004163324.pdf

And Panny XR-70, 100x6 into 6 ohms:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/PanasonicSA-XR70lab.pdf



Not to start a flame war with this, but I just thought comparing the actual power measurements was very interesting. The measured power output is very close to being the same on single channel and stereo, although the Panny does about 10 more watts on DD with 6 channels driven than the HK with 5 channels driven. And the HK is rated at 55wpc x 7 at 8 ohms, while the Panny is rated at 100wpc x 6 at 6 ohms.

I've known for a while that HK receivers/amps are underrated and perform very well (that's why I went with another HK, the 330, when I upgraded from an HK AVR125), but this is another moment that puts power ratings into perspective.


There is also a big difference in unclipped subwoofer output (volts), although I'm not quite sure exactly what this is, except that the higher the number the better and means less distortion.

bikeman
05-25-2006, 05:32 PM
Dave,
Of course, it is only my opinion but if you go to some other forums
Is this meant as a joke?



a common complaint issued by owners of the cheaper digital amps is the "digital sheen" which could even drive some to tubes.
"a common complaint?" Please do elaborate. And not with generalities, please.


I think that it is wise to wait for the advanced technology involved in digital amps to mature for a couple more years to trickle down to mass marketed AVR's.
That's nice. Your experience isn't going to do me much good. Probably vice versa. I've been in this hobby since the early 70's. I've got an idea what works. If your experience is different, no problem. Some folks can hear grass grow. Some can't.


However, there are some expensive digital separates that have been recieving very good reviews. Also there some economical DIY digital solutions that are making waves.Raja
I'm in the school that says you don't always get what ya pay for. My speakers and my receiver are in that genre.

David

Eddie
05-25-2006, 06:03 PM
Grayson,

Three possible reasons I can see for your experience:

1. CD playback through your DVD player is poor --- some will disagree but IME most low-cost DVD players simply do not do music very well for whatever reason, and the Ascend/Panny combo might highlight this more than others

2. CD playback through digital connection to xr55 --- I much prefer to use my Marantz CD player's DAC via an analog connection, can hear a definitely brighter "edge" when using the Panny's DAC

3. Some people are simply more sensitive to what is called a "bright" sound than others...could be varying degrees of natural adult hearing loss in the higher frequencies for all we know.

Probably the best way to find out is to borrow a friend's analog receiver, or "borrow" one from BB/CC using their liberal return policies.

rajacat
05-25-2006, 07:30 PM
Thanks for the responses. I think what I'm hearing is If you're saying that most of these mainstream CDs aren't recorded well, I suppose that means there's not much I can do.

I do think that the speakers are accurate so I thought it might be that the CD isn't being transferred to the speakers accurately. If it's a bad quality recording, I guess I can't do anything about it unless I want to 'color' the sound :D

Grayson,

Sell the CD player and get a Squeezbox or some other computer/entertainment system interface device. You get better, for the most part, sound quality and the convenience factor of having your whole CD collection at your fingertips irresistible unless you're a vinyl freak.

Raja

curtis
05-25-2006, 08:21 PM
I think you should be careful when saying the Squeezebox will sound better than a CD player. More convenient? Definitely!

shane55
05-25-2006, 10:11 PM
Ha!
Well Grayson, you've heard just about every possible 'solution':

Change your CD player
Change your receiver
Listen to different CD's
Go from your digital to analog connection
Just get used to the speakers
(And probably more... that I just don't remember this late at night...)

So whatchagonna do? Eh??? :D :D

Notice: No one said "send back the speakers"?

Whatever. All of us, not being in your abode, playing with your various electronics and tweaking it ourselves can only guess. We are well-meaning, but it's all speculation until you isolate the true 'issue' and correct it. Even if that true issue is to get used to the neutrality of the speakers! :D

Any way you do it... welcome to the Ascend Community... and good luck!

cheers

shane

Grayson73
05-26-2006, 06:51 AM
Thanks for all the responses. I'll wait a while to see if A) the speakers break in and B) my ears adjust.

I was playing with the SFC adjustments (i.e. Jazz, Pop/Rock, Party, Live) and certain ones seemed to sound better to me (I assume these are just preset EQ settings), but I'm going to try to stick to PLII and DTS:Neo6 since they should offer a flat response.

Grayson73
05-26-2006, 07:03 AM
[QUOTE=2. CD playback through digital connection to xr55 --- I much prefer to use my Marantz CD player's DAC via an analog connection, can hear a definitely brighter "edge" when using the Panny's DAC[/QUOTE]


Are you talking about using the red/white audio cables from the DVD player to the receiver?

Semi-related question: I'm thinking about buying the Samsung DV-HD841 DVD player for SACD and DVD-Audio only (I already have a Sony DVP-NS75H for DVDs). With this, I would be hooking up 5 channel analog. What happens when I play a regular CD through this setup? Does it still go through the 5 channel analog or do I need to also connect the stereo red/white?

Mag_Neato
05-26-2006, 07:28 AM
I believe the 5.1 outs will still pass a regular CD signal as well. You may have to refer to the player's manual/menu and see if there's a setting you need to make in order for that to work.

shane55
05-26-2006, 08:34 AM
Are you talking about using the red/white audio cables from the DVD player to the receiver?

Semi-related question: I'm thinking about buying the Samsung DV-HD841 DVD player for SACD and DVD-Audio only (I already have a Sony DVP-NS75H for DVDs). With this, I would be hooking up 5 channel analog. What happens when I play a regular CD through this setup? Does it still go through the 5 channel analog or do I need to also connect the stereo red/white?
Grayson.
First... yes, the 'red & white' out from your CD player will throughput an analog signal to the same colored inputs on your receiver (probably labeled CD).

If you connect the 6 cables (5.1 is 6-ch audio) from your SACD / DVD-A player to your 6-ch inputs on your receiver you won't have to change anything to play CD's in stereo... most likely.

I have a question for you though... are you playing CD's in DTS Neo or D-PLII? My outrageously blunt opinion is... don't. Play your stereo CD's in stereo. I don't try to alter my sound in any way. This means that I don't use any of my receivers 'sound modes'. No Jazz, Rock, Concert hall settings. Nothing. I keep it pure and 'flat'. Most of those settings seem to destroy the fidelity and add effects that I can’t tolerate. I don’t know your receiver, so I can not say exactly what your settings do to the sound, but I can’t imagine that your PLII or Neo are any different than mine… so turn them off. They are not music’s friends.

As for your speakers ‘breaking-in’. Well… yes. They do, and they don’t. Check a thread from a while back on this subject. Some… with extremely acute hearing may be able to detect a difference (especially in subs), but most won’t. Speakers ‘break-in’ only in as much as the speakers’ suspension material actually softens slightly with use. Whether it truly effects the sound has been debated ad infinitum.

Your mind should get used to the sound of the Ascends because you'll realize that with a well-recorded / produced CD it will sound 'right'.

The point is this: If your CD player is correctly set up and connected *properly* to your receiver… if your receiver is *properly* set up (stereo – flat – only to start!) and all your speaker wire / connections are of *good quality* (let’s not start an AWG 12 Monster cable is better than AWG 14 Zip cord debate), you should be just fine.

Then… let the Ascends do what they are supposed to do.

Good luck

shane

rajacat
05-26-2006, 08:51 AM
I think you should be careful when saying the Squeezebox will sound better than a CD player. More convenient? Definitely!

Curtis,

I did qualify my statement ("for the most part") :p . I have a stock Squeezebox and I have found that it far surpasses the SQ of my Panasonic DVD/CD player. Of course this is speculation but I would suspect that if you took a poll on this question, the vast majority of SB owners would agree with me. Also a modded SB is supposed to take it to a whole new level surpassing even dedicated high end CD players with exterior DACs.

The Squeezebox is not the only computer based music source that appeals to audiophiles and now there is the new Olive music player that is attracting interest and professional modders such as Red Wine Audio, http://www.redwineaudio.com/ are looking at this device to apply their skills.

Raja

curtis
05-26-2006, 09:25 AM
Curtis,

I did qualify my statement ("for the most part") :p . I have a stock Squeezebox and I have found that it far surpasses the SQ of my Panasonic DVD/CD player. Of course this is speculation but I would suspect that if you took a poll on this question, the vast majority of SB owners would agree with me. Also a modded SB is supposed to take it to a whole new level surpassing even dedicated high end CD players with exterior DACs.
You need to qualify it even more....what kind of files?

My Squeezebox does not surpass the SQ of my Denon 2900.

rajacat
05-26-2006, 09:43 AM
You need to qualify it even more....what kind of files?

My Squeezebox does not surpass the SQ of my Denon 2900.

Denon 2900 list price =$840. Squeezebox 3 list price = $300. Your opinion of the SB might change if you had it modded, either digital or analog or both. With the digital mod you might have to make an investment in an external DAC to fully realize its potential. The future is now and the dedicated CD player will go the way of 8 tracks and cassettes.

Files? I rip my CDs using EAC for lossless wav files which are converted to flac compressed files which the SB decompresses and converts to beautiful lossless music.

Raja

curtis
05-26-2006, 10:16 AM
I got my refurbed 2900 for $500. The SB3 is now $249, in addition, the analog mod is $279, digital mod is $399. You may even need to add the cost of storage and networking.

Can you point me to a link where people are saying the Squeezebox + lossless files sound better than CD players?


The future is now and the dedicated CD player will go the way of 8 tracks and cassettes.
I think it will be a while before lossless files are readily distributed by the music companies.

BradJudy
05-26-2006, 10:31 AM
Can you point me to a link where people are saying the Squeezebox + lossless files sound better than CD players?


This is a pretty popular topic over on AudioCircle, especially in the Bolder or Red Wine forums (they both modify SBs). Some people have ditched pretty pricey CD players for them. I haven't listened to one myself.

rajacat
05-26-2006, 10:43 AM
<<Can you point me to a link where people are saying the Squeezebox + lossless files sound better than CD players?>>>


http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=25553&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Raja
]

curtis
05-26-2006, 11:24 AM
Thanks you guys....some good reading.

Gov
05-26-2006, 05:37 PM
You may also want to try "7 channel stereo" mode or something similiar. I use this only my Pioneer 1014 and really love it with redbook CD's!!

Eddie
05-26-2006, 09:15 PM
Grayson,

1. One of the nice things about the Panny is that when you bi-amp it offers you the ability to regulate how much power goes to the tweeter vs. the woofers. If you are finding the Panny/Ascend combo to be overly "bright" you can thus send more juice to the woofers and less to the tweeters...since tweeters are generally much higher sensitivity, this makes a lot of sense and also can allow you to "tame" an overly bright tweeter.

2. In bi-amp mode the Panny also lets you do phase correction, i.e. compensate for the different depths of the tweeters vs. the woofers. Though to be honest I personally cannot really hear much difference doing this...of course I was not inputting very precise numbers just guesstimating.

3. Rather than use various EQ/sound-processing modes, I'd add to Shane's advice not to do that. Instead, I'd advise you to try something that I *only* advise owners of the xr55 to do: adjust the treble setting. Why? Because on the Panny, the treble control affects the topmost 20Hz frequencies rather than the typical 10-15Hz frequencies that most analog receivers use. So you can effectively reduce that topmost layer of brightness without unduly screwing up the rest of the sound.

rajacat
05-26-2006, 10:41 PM
Grayson,

1. One of the nice things about the Panny is that when you bi-amp it offers you the ability to regulate how much power goes to the tweeter vs. the woofers. If you are finding the Panny/Ascend combo to be overly "bright" you can thus send more juice to the woofers and less to the tweeters...since tweeters are generally much higher sensitivity, this makes a lot of sense and also can allow you to "tame" an overly bright tweeter.

2. In bi-amp mode the Panny also lets you do phase correction, i.e. compensate for the different depths of the tweeters vs. the woofers. Though to be honest I personally cannot really hear much difference doing this...of course I was not inputting very precise numbers just guesstimating.

3. Rather than use various EQ/sound-processing modes, I'd add to Shane's advice not to do that. Instead, I'd advise you to try something that I *only* advise owners of the xr55 to do: adjust the treble setting. Why? Because on the Panny, the treble control affects the topmost 20Hz frequencies rather than the typical 10-15Hz frequencies that most analog receivers use. So you can effectively reduce that topmost layer of brightness without unduly screwing up the rest of the sound.

Excellent advice! I wish I was aware of that use of the bi-amping function before I sold it. That addresses my two main complaints about the XR55: 1) harsh treble, 2) relatively weak bass.

Also I didn't realize that the treble control only affected the very upper range of brightness.

Grayson73
05-27-2006, 04:29 AM
Thanks for the info.

I found that I liked the 340SE when playing in stereo and in full range, so I think the problem is that the crossover (100hz) is too high.

What I'd like to do is have the speakers set to 'large' with sub on for 2 channel (music) and 'small' for multichannel (movies), but it seems like I'd have to switch this manually every time because the Panny can't remember the settings. Have you found this to be true?

Eddie
05-27-2006, 05:16 AM
I found that I liked the 340SE when playing in stereo and in full range, so I think the problem is that the crossover (100hz) is too high.

What I'd like to do is have the speakers set to 'large' with sub on for 2 channel (music) and 'small' for multichannel (movies), but it seems like I'd have to switch this manually every time because the Panny can't remember the settings. Have you found this to be true?

Yes unfortunately those are my 2 strongest complaints about the xr55: no 60Hz crossover setting, and no separate settings for different inputs. I wish you could at least just hit one button on the remote to switch to a "Pure Direct" (no crossover and no sub) or a "Stereo" (no crossover but with sub) mode like on my old Marantz. On the other hand the Panny's remote does allow you to adjust the subwoofer output level, which is kind of an unusual feature.

Eddie
05-27-2006, 05:17 AM
Excellent advice! I wish I was aware of that use of the bi-amping function before I sold it. That addresses my two main complaints about the XR55: 1) harsh treble, 2) relatively weak bass.

Also I didn't realize that the treble control only affected the very upper range of brightness.


Yeah the Panasonic manual kind of sucks --- I only found that out from the mega-thread xr55 thread on AVS.

rajacat
05-27-2006, 09:40 AM
Yeah the Panasonic manual kind of sucks --- I only found that out from the mega-thread xr55 thread on AVS.

Wow, I guess I just got a little impatient with the XR55. :o Perhaps the default setting on my unit was a little out of kilter. I should have kept track on what was happening on tha Panny megathread :( .I did like the imaging, quietness and sounstage of the XR55.

Well, all is not lost, my search for amps has taken me down many more roads and expanded my horizons. I toyed with the idea of purchasing a traditional muscle amp such as an Odyssey Stratos (150/ch on the used market or buying a T or D amp and running them through a tube preamp to tame the hard edges. I wish I had tried the tubed pre with the Panny. Well, for now, the road has ended and this morning I made the commitment to purchase a 100w @4 ohms /ch Gainclone chip amp at a very reasonable price. :) I will combine this with a used Mapletree 3A SE tube pre which, by most reports, will be an excellent and synergistic team. I believe that the 340SE's really like to have lots of power at their disposal and the Gainclones are reputed to be very powerful for their rated output and this dual bridged version should be the cat's meow.

Raja

davef
05-27-2006, 10:37 AM
I found that I liked the 340SE when playing in stereo and in full range, so I think the problem is that the crossover (100hz) is too high.

What I'd like to do is have the speakers set to 'large' with sub on for 2 channel (music) and 'small' for multichannel (movies), but it seems like I'd have to switch this manually every time because the Panny can't remember the settings. Have you found this to be true?

Hi Grayson,

Your experience with the XR-55 was much like mine... I very much liked the performance when the default settings were turned off and the unit was running full range. However, something was off when the high-pass filter was enabled. I think I am going to run some frequency sweeps on the receiver to try and see exactly what it is doing... My unit did not "remember" the settings when turned off so I found that especially annoying, 100Hz crossover setting with NO sub can sound pretty bright... Still, we paid $230 for the unit.. remarkable at that price.

bikeman
05-27-2006, 03:22 PM
I thought the change from 100hz to 80hz would be so small that I wouldn't notice a difference but I did. It's been several months since I experimented with the crossover but the 100hz setting seemed much closer to the higher settings than to the 80hz setting. I'm satisfied with the 80hz setting but I'd pick-up a Panny with a lower (<70hz) crossover if it were offered.

David

Grayson73
05-29-2006, 05:09 PM
Hi Grayson,

Your experience with the XR-55 was much like mine... I very much liked the performance when the default settings were turned off and the unit was running full range. However, something was off when the high-pass filter was enabled. I think I am going to run some frequency sweeps on the receiver to try and see exactly what it is doing... My unit did not "remember" the settings when turned off so I found that especially annoying, 100Hz crossover setting with NO sub can sound pretty bright... Still, we paid $230 for the unit.. remarkable at that price.

I actually have the XR-50 and was thinking that the 100hz crossover was the issue. How did you feel with the 80Hz crossover on the XR-55?

I was thinking about picking up the XR-57 for the 80hz crossover and the dual-amping in 5.1 mode.

Grayson73
05-31-2006, 02:41 PM
You need to qualify it even more....what kind of files?

My Squeezebox does not surpass the SQ of my Denon 2900.

Curtis,

What type of files are you playing through your Squeezebox and how are you connecting it to your receiver?

curtis
05-31-2006, 03:23 PM
Curtis,

What type of files are you playing through your Squeezebox and how are you connecting it to your receiver?
Until this past weekend, I had pretty much just been using MP3 256kbps. Then I ripped three discs to FLAC. It is hooked up via the optical digital.

Lou-the-dog
05-31-2006, 04:22 PM
Until this past weekend, I had pretty much just been using MP3 256kbps. Then I ripped three discs to FLAC. It is hooked up via the optical digital.


Curtis, I think you promised us a review of the FLAC rip (vs MP3). Did I miss it somewhere?

Randy

Lou-the-dog
05-31-2006, 04:26 PM
Or maybe it was FLAC vs CD. Either way I'm interested.

Randy

curtis
05-31-2006, 06:42 PM
I have not tried the analog side of the Squeezbox, but with FLAC and using the DACs on the pre/pro, I can not tell the difference from CD.

Grayson73
06-01-2006, 08:42 AM
So there is no improvement from CD to FLAC?

Since I was disappointed with the CD performance of my DVP-NS75H, I was wondering if getting a Squeezebox would be an improvement. It certainly is more convenient!

rajacat
06-01-2006, 09:06 AM
So there is no improvement from CD to FLAC?

Since I was disappointed with the CD performance of my DVP-NS75H, I was wondering if getting a Squeezebox would be an improvement. It certainly is more convenient!

Compared to my garden variety DVD/CD player the sound quality of the Squeezebox was much better. The Squeezebox and its' offshoots and modifications are the rage on audiophile forums and from my experience this is not hype. IMO you would be better off selling your cd player, unless it is an extremely good unit and invest in a computer based audio playback system. It is not only about convenience but also about improved SQ. Here is a link to the Audio Circle, the Square circle, which you might find informative.

Raja

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewforum.php?f=46&sid=8812a15c6d9836f79e1d4440e8475e57

curtis
06-01-2006, 09:41 AM
So there is no improvement from CD to FLAC?

Since I was disappointed with the CD performance of my DVP-NS75H, I was wondering if getting a Squeezebox would be an improvement. It certainly is more convenient!
Are you using a digital connection...or analog?

Since I have my Squeezebox connected digitally to my pre/pro, with lossless encoding, the pre/pro should be seeing the same bits as from my disc player, which is also hooked up digitally.

As far as improving from CD to FLAC.....how do you improve an original copy? The player/decoder is where the improvement comes into play.

I equate the Squeezebox's improvement over a CD player to be just like any other playback device being better than another.

curtis
06-01-2006, 09:46 AM
I am going to move this part of the discussion to another thread.

Grayson73
06-01-2006, 10:48 AM
Are you using a digital connection...or analog?

Since I have my Squeezebox connected digitally to my pre/pro, with lossless encoding, the pre/pro should be seeing the same bits as from my disc player, which is also hooked up digitally.

As far as improving from CD to FLAC.....how do you improve an original copy? The player/decoder is where the improvement comes into play.

I equate the Squeezebox's improvement over a CD player to be just like any other playback device being better than another.

I'm using digital coax connection.

That's a good point,..why would a different CD player or squeezebox sound any better than my DVD player if the DVD player is sending the same bits to my Panasonic SA-XR50 via digital coax?

Are people finding analog connections to be superior to digital for CDs?

curtis
06-01-2006, 11:25 AM
Are people finding analog connections to be superior to digital for CDs?
Depends on all the components involved.

Some CD players have better DACs or sound quality than receivers or pre/pros and vice-versa.

Grayson73
06-02-2006, 12:54 PM
Since my Panasonic SA-XR50 is a digital receiver, it doesn't really have 'DACs'. Therefore, I'm already getting the best sound from my Sony DVP-NS75H via Digital Coax to the Panasonic receiver (unless Optical Toslink sounds better).

If I were to use the analog input on the Panny, it would go through ADC conversion which supposedly isn't good on the Panny.

Therefore, I'm not sure I can get much better sound out of the Panny with other players or Squeezebox unless jitter and other factors are making the NS75H sound inferior.

curtis
06-02-2006, 01:33 PM
A digital amplifier amplifies an analog signal.....so it DOES have DACs to convert digital signals that are fed to it.

Grayson73
06-02-2006, 01:52 PM
A digital amplifier amplifies an analog signal.....so it DOES have DACs to convert digital signals that are fed to it.

That's only if you use the analog inputs of the Panny (it goes through analog to digital conversion).

SiriuslyCold on AVS said:

It uses Texas Instruments TAS5076 (Six-Channel Digital Audio PWM Processor) and TAS5182 (Digital Amplifier Power Stage Controller)

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folde...nt/tas5076.html
http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folde...nt/tas5182.html

The TAS5076 converts PCM audio input into PWM.

A true digital audio amplifier (TDAA) chip set consists of a TAS50xx PCM-PWM modulator and a number of TAS51xx PWM amplifiers as shown in Figure 1. At the center of this patented technology is the conversion of pulse-code modulated (PCM) to pulse-width modulated (PWM) signals. The audio signal is maintained in the digital domain right until the last filter before the speaker connection. No analog signal amplification is used, and the PWM signal powers the speakers directly through a passive low-pass filter. This allows the full digital signal chain to pass the high quality audio signal directly to the speaker, without distortion from analog amplification.

curtis
06-02-2006, 06:50 PM
First...you have to remember that is a marketing document.

The digital information has to be converted to analog at some point before the speakers. Do you agree that has to happen?

Grayson73
06-03-2006, 07:20 PM
There is a conversion step, but its digital - PCM to PWM in the PWM processor (see attachment)

curtis
06-03-2006, 09:24 PM
So tell me how the speakers convert digital to analog.....

bikeman
06-04-2006, 04:37 AM
So tell me how the speakers convert digital to analog.....
Ah, magic? :rolleyes: :D

David

Jonnyozero3
06-04-2006, 12:07 PM
So tell me how the speakers convert digital to analog.....


Dave's crossovers must be more capable than I even imagined! :p

Grayson73
06-05-2006, 11:53 AM
This is getting over my head, so I'll just post some links and some quotes from what I've read.

There is no DAC in a Digital Amp:
http://www.puredigitalaudio.org/digitalamplifiers/index.shtml

Here's a nice explanation of the equibit technology used in the Panasonic (and Tact, etc.):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=83877#post83877

More quotes:

"Of course, a PWM power amp is essentially a DAC that delivers a high current output sufficient to drive speakers, so in a strict sense there is still a DAC involved, as there ultimately must be if you want to get music out of the system"

"I wouldn't want to call it a PWM DAC, it's more like a filter than a traditional DAC."

"These units (unless *I*'ve gotten really befuddled along the way) use an
Equibit-chip-based power DAC -- which is to say that this PWM DAC is
(essentially) connected directly to the speakers, and powers them. This
architecture is implemented at a low price point by Panasonic, and at a
higher one by TacT.

The reason one would choose to buy one of these Pannys is precisely for
the sound quality of the D/A-converting output stage (or its potential
sound quality, after a few parts-quality improvements); at their best,
this technology can provide a spooky level of immediacy, directness,
purity, or however else you wish to describe it. It'll only be showing
its full potential driven digitally, with internal filters and A/D
conversions switched out.

To drive one via an analog input would not accomplish the bypassing of
the power DAC; it'd just lay the sonic signature of the DAC you added
*and* the signature of the Panny's internal A/D converter (since the
output stage needs a digital signal) atop that of the Equibit
implementation."

Grayson73
06-05-2006, 12:00 PM
I am still blown away by TV and movie performance, but am not too impressed so far with CD music. It doesn't sound as full as I'd like even though it is very detailed. Seems like I'm missing good midrange/upper bass and highs are too bright.

I was testing with the Kelly Clarkson Breakaway CD and Clay Aiken's CD.

I have 340SEs across the front with SVS 25-31CS sub, Panasonic SA-XR50 (100hz crossover), and Sony DVP-NS75H.

Is the problem with:
1. The CD capabilities of the DVP-NS75H
2. The 100hz crossover and/or the Panasonic SA-XR50
3. CD quality of the CDs I tested
4. Something else

I tried stereo with sub, stereo full range without sub, and DTS Neo:6. Adjusting the bass helped a little bit, but I can only do that in stereo mode.

I think I'll eventually try the SA-XR57 to see if the combination of dual amping, 80hz crossover, and upgraded electronics (I assume) improve the sound quality.

Am I expecting too much out of the speakers?

I listened to the same CDs again and they sounded better to me. Could be speaker break-in or my ears adjusting to it.

I still like the sound of the 340s with 2-channel full range. 2-channel plus sub crossed over at 100hz didn't sound as good in the midrange to me, but did provide more bass for bass heavy songs.

When the price drops to around $250 for the XR57, I'll pick one up for the 80hz crossover which will definitely improve things. I would guess that 60hz would probably be good and maybe even better.

cyberbri
06-05-2006, 12:58 PM
I listened to the same CDs again and they sounded better to me. Could be speaker break-in or my ears adjusting to it.

I still like the sound of the 340s with 2-channel full range. 2-channel plus sub crossed over at 100hz didn't sound as good in the midrange to me, but did provide more bass for bass heavy songs.

When the price drops to around $250 for the XR57, I'll pick one up for the 80hz crossover which will definitely improve things. I would guess that 60hz would probably be good and maybe even better.


How well do you have the sub integrated? Have you checked for any cancellation due to phase? That could be sucking out SPL in certain frequencies.

Having the sub take over the bass should actually put less stress on the receiver and speakers because they are no longer reproducing the lowest and hardest-to-drive frequencies. Properly integrated, switching over to the sub shouldn't be noticeable except for deeper bass extension. So I don't know how the "midrange" could sound different. But something definitely sounds not right.


What crossover works best also depends on the room and acoustics, and the speaker placement within the room, as much as the speakers/sub themselves. You may have to adjust the crossover to get around room/acoustic anamolies at certain frequencies, etc.

curtis
06-05-2006, 01:19 PM
This is getting over my head, so I'll just post some links and some quotes from what I've read.

There is no DAC in a Digital Amp:
http://www.puredigitalaudio.org/digitalamplifiers/index.shtml

Here's a nice explanation of the equibit technology used in the Panasonic (and Tact, etc.):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=83877#post83877

More quotes:

"Of course, a PWM power amp is essentially a DAC that delivers a high current output sufficient to drive speakers, so in a strict sense there is still a DAC involved, as there ultimately must be if you want to get music out of the system"

"I wouldn't want to call it a PWM DAC, it's more like a filter than a traditional DAC."

"These units (unless *I*'ve gotten really befuddled along the way) use an
Equibit-chip-based power DAC -- which is to say that this PWM DAC is
(essentially) connected directly to the speakers, and powers them. This
architecture is implemented at a low price point by Panasonic, and at a
higher one by TacT.

The reason one would choose to buy one of these Pannys is precisely for
the sound quality of the D/A-converting output stage (or its potential
sound quality, after a few parts-quality improvements); at their best,
this technology can provide a spooky level of immediacy, directness,
purity, or however else you wish to describe it. It'll only be showing
its full potential driven digitally, with internal filters and A/D
conversions switched out.

To drive one via an analog input would not accomplish the bypassing of
the power DAC; it'd just lay the sonic signature of the DAC you added
*and* the signature of the Panny's internal A/D converter (since the
output stage needs a digital signal) atop that of the Equibit
implementation."
It says right there that there is a digital to analog conversion. The question is now if that conversion is better than that of the any number of "traditional" DACs that exist.

Grayson73
06-05-2006, 01:29 PM
How well do you have the sub integrated? Have you checked for any cancellation due to phase? That could be sucking out SPL in certain frequencies.

The phase is currently set to 0 and I didn't mess with it. The way to figure out cancellation would be to use DVE lower frequency sweep with SPL meter?

cyberbri
06-05-2006, 01:39 PM
The phase is currently set to 0 and I didn't mess with it. The way to figure out cancellation would be to use DVE lower frequency sweep with SPL meter?


You can use sweeps to see if you get a dip in response with either setting. Or, if there are special phase tones with bass noise around/above/below the crossover point, the setting that is more in phase will give you more SPL than out of phase.

For example, measuring with an SPL meter and 1/3 octave tones, testing my VTF-3 at a certain spot in my room, you can see in the attached image how much bass I lost when the phase setting was at 0, putting it out of phase with the main speakers. That's a 15-20dB drop from about 75-140Hz or so.

This is the second sub in the second room I have tested where, when placed at the front right of the room, along the right wall in front of the right speaker, a 180-deg phase setting has produced the best results for me.

Grayson73
06-05-2006, 08:21 PM
Sorry for going off topic on this thread.

I have Ascend 340 SEs across the front and SVS 25-31CS sub. Speakers are set to 'small' and crossover at 100hz.

I was running the 6 channel bass frequency sweep in DVE (goes up to 150hz).

Using 85db as a reference, phase 0 varied between 76-84 and dropped off at around 89hz.

Phase 90 varied between 76-84 and dropped off at around 96hz.

Phase 180 varied between 76-84 and dropped off at around 98hz.

Does this mean that I should set phase at 180? Doesn't this mean that polarity is switched on my sub? Setting phase at 0 and swapping the positive and negative on my sub would have the same result, right?

Also, doesn't this mean that the sub is going in during bass hits rather than pushing out? To me, that would mean that the 'thumps' won't be as loud and defined.

Am I supposed to test a different way?

cyberbri
06-05-2006, 08:25 PM
Sorry for going off topic on this thread.

I have Ascend 340 SEs across the front and SVS 25-31CS sub. Speakers are set to 'small' and crossover at 100hz.

I was running the 6 channel bass frequency sweep in DVE (goes up to 150hz).

Using 85db as a reference, phase 0 varied between 76-89 and dropped off at around 89hz.

Phase 90 varied between 76-89 and dropped off at around 96hz.

Phase 180 varied between 76-89 and dropped off at around 98hz.

Does this mean that I should set phase at 180? Doesn't this mean that polarity is switched on my sub? Setting phase at 0 and swapping the positive and negative on my sub would have the same result, right?

Also, doesn't this mean that the sub is going in during bass hits rather than pushing out? To me, that would mean that the 'thumps' won't be as loud and defined.

Am I supposed to test a different way?


Can you explain your test procedure again? What tones, how you measured, speakers on/off, what results you got, etc.? What do you mean "dropped off"? No output above that?

And are you running the sub off of speaker-level inputs, then back out to the mains? Or are you running off the LFE/sub cable?

The Phase issue comes into play with room acoustics, and the timing the bass reaches the listening position from different bass drivers (speakers/sub). If they reach the LP out of phase, you get cancellation at various frequencies.

curtis
06-05-2006, 08:30 PM
geez...we can't get you guys to start new topic threads. :)

Grayson73
06-06-2006, 06:37 AM
Can you explain your test procedure again? What tones, how you measured, speakers on/off, what results you got, etc.? What do you mean "dropped off"? No output above that?

And are you running the sub off of speaker-level inputs, then back out to the mains? Or are you running off the LFE/sub cable?

The Phase issue comes into play with room acoustics, and the timing the bass reaches the listening position from different bass drivers (speakers/sub). If they reach the LP out of phase, you get cancellation at various frequencies.

I ran the DVE track that does frequency sweep from 15hz-150hz for all 6 speakers + sub. All 6 speakers are set to 'small'.

I put the SPL meter at 80 and it fluctuated from -4 to +4 and dropped to -10 at the points listed previously. I don't know how far it dropped. I suppose I would have to switch the meter to 70 or 60 to find out.

My previous posting of 76-89 is incorrect. It should be 76-84.

cyberbri
06-06-2006, 09:19 AM
I ran the DVE track that does frequency sweep from 15hz-150hz for all 6 speakers + sub. All 6 speakers are set to 'small'.

I put the SPL meter at 80 and it fluctuated from -4 to +4 and dropped to -10 at the points listed previously. I don't know how far it dropped. I suppose I would have to switch the meter to 70 or 60 to find out.

My previous posting of 76-89 is incorrect. It should be 76-84.


Yes, that may be phase. Or it could be acoustics, or a combination of the two.

So it was running all 6 speakers and the LFE at once?


Does it have anything that does the individual channels at once?
Your main focus should be on the left/right mains, and then the center. The surrounds don't matter quite as much compared to the front speakers.

Grayson73
06-06-2006, 10:13 AM
Yes, that may be phase. Or it could be acoustics, or a combination of the two.

So it was running all 6 speakers and the LFE at once?


Does it have anything that does the individual channels at once?
Your main focus should be on the left/right mains, and then the center. The surrounds don't matter quite as much compared to the front speakers.

Yes, all 6 and LFE at once. I didn't see anything that would play a bass freq sweep for just mains plus sub in DVE. Maybe I can change it to stereo mode on the DVD and receiver to accomplish this.

Am I trying to find the position and phase where it is loudest at crossover point (100hz)?

cyberbri
06-06-2006, 11:22 AM
Yes, all 6 and LFE at once. I didn't see anything that would play a bass freq sweep for just mains plus sub in DVE. Maybe I can change it to stereo mode on the DVD and receiver to accomplish this.

Am I trying to find the position and phase where it is loudest at crossover point (100hz)?


Yes, basically.
It will be out of phase to varying degrees at varying frequencies, depending on the placement of the speakers and the room dimensions/acoustics. You want to minimize this, either with the phase setting on the sub, the speaker and sub distance in the receiver, and placement within the room.

The more out of phase it is, the more drop-out you will have. You want to tweak it so you have the smoothest response possible.

What you can do is rent/buy Avia for the individual channel tones, and/or get specific frequency and sweep tones and burn them to a CD (ie., realmofexcursion.com's downloads).

If you run just the subwoofer, and left+sub and right+sub, you can see if that dip in sound around 100Hz is present when only the sub is playing, or if it only comes into play when the bass is coming from both the sub and the speakers.

Grayson73
06-08-2006, 10:56 AM
I did some more playing around yesterday. When I ran the 6 channel + sub sweep with just the mains and the sub, the response was much flatter than with all 6. I attribute this to having Athena AS-R1 and S2 rears which have a different FR curve.

It will be interesting to see what changes I make to sub phase and the overall FR when I move in July and hook up my 170SEs as surrounds.

cyberbri
06-08-2006, 11:03 AM
Good luck with that!
You should also think about picking up Avia too.
You can download and burn for free individual frequency tones and sweep tones, but Avia is 5.1 DD, and it has a readout on the screen for the sweeps so you can see what frequency different things are happening at. The bass tones are also accurate (level), unlike DVE.