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Quinn
05-21-2006, 08:55 PM
Can we get a discussion area started on music servers so you computers folks can help us technophobes with setup?

I see the server as the future of music storage and playback.


Areas I'd like to see covered-

Lossless ripping

Hard disk capacity needed

How to connect a computer in one room with the stereo in another room/ How to control from room with stereo.

USB DACs



I've been reading some on the Wavelength Audio (http://www.wavelengthaudio.com/usbdac.html) site and found it fairly informative but it also made me realize I don't really know anything about this stuff.

BradJudy
05-21-2006, 09:20 PM
Depending on your budget, if you're starting from scratch I'd recommend looking at compressing with FLAC and using SqueezeBox players to send the music to stereos.

Uncompressed audio runs about 600MB/hour and FLAC encoded should be about half of that (~300MB/hour). By comparison, 256kbps MP3 should be about 120MB/hour.

As for storage space, you just need to do some math. If you have 200 albums and they average an hour each (albums tend to average less than that, so that gives some wiggle room), then you'd need ~60GB to hold them in FLAC if you got 50% compression (might get less).

Since it will take you a long time to rip all of your albums, you should strongly consider having a backup of your digital music on an external hard drive too.

The SqueezeBox players have displays and remotes so you can control the music. You just run their server software on a computer and point it to your folder of music.

Quinn
05-21-2006, 10:30 PM
And if you only want lossless? How much hard drives run? What about the products from Olive (http://www.olive.us/p_bin/?cid=home) if upgrading or getting another computer would be part of the cost of switching to a music server?

curtis
05-21-2006, 11:04 PM
FLAC is lossless.

You can get a 300gb harddrive now for around $80.

That Olive stuff looks pretty cool.....but if you wanted to do a seperate PC for the Squeezebox, you could setup the whole thing for much less money than the cheapest Olive.....and have a ton more storage.

I love my Squeezebox. I rip everything into 256kbps MP3 because it is compatible with everything and serves my listening purposes just fine. For serious critical listening, I use the disc player.

Currently, I have a 250gb hard drive(formatted, it is 232gb of space), and the SlimServer(the server software for the Squeezebox) reports that my music library contains 220 albums with 2738 songs by 181 artists. Looks like I am using about 24gb of space for it.

sensibull
05-22-2006, 05:50 AM
Ripping into FLAC (http://flac.sourceforge.net/) (Free Lossless Audio Codec) with EAC (http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/) (Exact Audio Copy) is pretty much the defacto standard in lossless music storage. Both programs are free, FLAC is open-source and widely supported in software and fairly widely supported in hardware. Numerous forum threads and guides exist on how to automate the process properly, for utmost accuracy. Some good examples are here (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?EACBeginners), here (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=EAC_Drive_Configuration), and here (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=30959).

You should probably decide from the beginning whether you'll eventually move towards storing and serving video as well as audio. If so, you will definitely need a dedicated server. For audio you could probably get by for a while using your regular PC (posts above will help predict space needed). I currently have 1 terrabyte of storage and I'm about 75% full, but that includes quite a few movies and video files, 800-900 albums, and lots of misc. crap.

As far as getting the audio to your stereo, there are several options of varying complexity. The easiest by far would be to buy a Squeezebox (http://www.slimdevices.com/), hook it up to your server/pc via wireless or wired ethernet and be done with it. Depending on your home layout, the next easiest/cheapest would be to run audio lines directly out of the soundcard on your server/pc to your stereo. However, this would be the hardest setup to remotely control (options include using a PDA or a wireless networked monitor like an airpanel (http://www.viewsonic.com/support/mobilewireless/airpanelsmartdisplays/airpanelv110/) as a remote client to control your server/pc or simply walking into the room with the pc and controlling it manually).

Personally, I went for the option with the most flexibility and control. I run a dedicated server in my basement and have a custom-built HTPC in my listening room with my audio/video gear. I run Xlobby (http://www.xlobby.com/) as my frontend on a 12" touchscreen for maximum WAF, but I also use a wireless keyboard and a JP1 univeral remote to which I taught the keyboard's protocol and which also controls all my other gear. Most of this stuff was bought used, or at deep discount, so my total output is still considerably less than your average off-the-shelf Windows Media Center box.

Last words: there's no way to cover the whole topic here. Be prepared to spend a lot of time researching this new hobby. Some great forums are at:

AVS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=26)
Head Fi (http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=59)

Oh, and whatever you do, organize your music directories and make sure you tag your files properly from the start. I use Tag & Rename but there are free options available. (MediaMonkey (http://www.mediamonkey.com/) is often recommended).

Good luck!

BradJudy
05-22-2006, 06:12 AM
Great post Sensibull.


FLAC is open-source and widely supported in software and fairly widely supported in hardware.

It's worth noting that support for FLAC in portable players is minimal. There are some that support it, like Cowan/iAudio, but most people will use a transcoder to convert FLAC to mp3 for use on portable players. If you plan to do this, then you'll need to keep spare room to store the mp3 copies as well.

sensibull
05-22-2006, 06:47 AM
It's worth noting that support for FLAC in portable players is minimal.

Good point and something I intended to mention. FLAC support seems to be catching on -- I check out the Lossless Audio Blog (http://losslessaudio.blogspot.com/) from time to time to keep up on the latest developments. You can find a pretty good list of supported hardware here (http://flac.sourceforge.net/links.html#hardware). But BradJudy is right, most people transcode to MP3 for portables and car use.


Since it will take you a long time to rip all of your albums, you should strongly consider having a backup of your digital music on an external hard drive too.

Since this would effectively double your needed storage, one alternative to this is to burn backups of your archive onto DVD-Rom. I don't backup everything but I do have about 350 FLAC rips archived onto 30 DVD-Rs. That's 30 x 4.5 GB @ ~ $.30/disc = $9 vs. ~ $ 80 for a 150 GB Harddrive. YMMV.

Quinn
05-23-2006, 04:57 PM
Olive appeals to me as the big compliant I see is how long it takes to rip your CD collect to hard drive. With an Olive type server I'd just load them as I feel like listening to them.

I really suck at technology. I brought a computer with a CD burner 2 years ago and still can't figure out how to burn CDs for the car.

Austinbirdman
08-31-2006, 11:41 AM
This is for Curtis or anyone else who has heard the Sonos network music systems. Curtis, I am an old Axiomite who crossed over and bought some Ascends after reading your reviews -- thanks. Great suggestion.

Now I want to know what you think of your Sonos system? Have you seen any functionality or listening advantages over the Squeezebox? And what sound quality are you getting (relative to the file size)?

Austinbirdman

curtis
08-31-2006, 12:00 PM
Hey Austinbirdman,

I love both the Squeezebox and Sonos system.

The main advantages the Sonos has is the fact that server software is not needed and the remote. I use networked attached storage(NAS) to store all my FLAC files as well as other data, which allows any PC on my home network to access these files. The Sonos player accesses the files in the same manner, so no PC is needed. One remote can control up to 32 players and works via RF, you can control the players through walls. Only one player needs to be plugged into the network, and as other players are introduced, they create their own wireless mesh network. There is also a PC interface if you wanted to use one.

The Squeezebox requires server side software, which now can come preloaded on a NAS device, some have also hacked NAS devices to load the software. A PC is not needed to control the Squeezebox, but to get a graphical interface(web page) you do need web browser, otherwise you need navigate via a two line text interface on the box itself. All Squeezbox need to attach to the home network, wired or wireless. Also, it costs less.

Sound quality is equal since both were hooked up via optical digital to my pre/pro. FLAC files are lossless, and approximately half the size of the original file, with no loss in sound quality over the CD.

I highly recommend both depending on what you are looking for. For me, I love the extra added convenience of the Sonos. Since using a Squeezebox with FLAC, and now Sonos....I rarely use my disc player now for two-channel music.

Austinbirdman
08-31-2006, 12:14 PM
Thanks for the great answer. The Squeezebox sounds like a great product but I think the convenience of the Sonos is going to win the day. It is reassuring to hear positive reports on its audio quality from people running FLAC files. I can't wait to complete our addition in November and get one of these systems up and running. The one other system that could snag me is the Olive Musica, which also has the ability to stream around the house like the Sonos. The single Musica costs more than the Sonos bundle, but Olive's room-extension modules (Sonatas) are only $199 and look sorta like on-wall iPods, which can be operated manually or via remote. So that's appealing, but there are some unpleasant postings around about Olive products, and the Sonos meanwhile seems to elicit positive vibrations all around. Also, with the Olive, it just seems like you're locking into a lot of hardware (a 160GB HD on board the unit at $1099 total, or 250GB for $1500), whereas the Sonos is more modular and therefore flexible down the road.

Glad to hear you really like yours.

Austinbirdman

curtis
08-31-2006, 01:27 PM
Yeah, the NAS device is really serving multiple purposes for me. Storage for my FLAC files, backup for other critical data, and a print server for my printer.

The Olive products definitely look interesting as well, but I think I would rather have the storage seperate from the player, as well as the ripping/tagging.

Quinn
08-31-2006, 08:27 PM
I think the Olive products are having some issues. Go to audiocircle.com and read up on Olive.

ebh
09-03-2006, 06:22 PM
i'm a big squeezebox fan and love mine. i also thought it would be worth mentioning the Xbox Media Center in this thread. I just hacked my Xbox and now can access my FLAC files over the network with the Xbox, as well as video and other things. If you have an old Xbox laying around it's a great little front-end for accessing all kinds of content, and it's pretty cheap too.

as for FLAC not playing on portables, I then rip my FLAC to 192kbs VBR mp3s for playing on my iPod. takes up more space, but worth it to have both.

tamuct
09-05-2006, 10:50 AM
I've never messed with XBMC (although it is installed on my Xbox). I've been using MythTV on my Linux-based HTPC and really enjoy the flexibility of it. TV, music, photos, DVDs...the list goes on. I have to say that getting a working MythTV setup can be a daunting task, it's well worth it for those willing to try.

nuck
09-15-2006, 12:47 PM
I have a Crearive Labs Platinum X-1 soundcard configured for EQ Stereo running in the new pc, yet to be cabled downstairs into my DAC.
Is the FLAC so much better than full files, other than space? I have 2x250g drives dedicated to music only, wanting the absolute finest in reproduction.
I will run a bluetooth key/mouse and video to the big screen down there to manage it.

Thank You.

curtis
09-15-2006, 01:19 PM
When the FLAC file is decoded, it is no different than what went into it....nothing is lost. The advantages are the fact that they take up 40-60% space of the original, and it supports meta data(ie. artist, album, track information) which .wav files don't.

On another note: You are going to run a digital connection from your PC to your DAC..one floor to another, and use a bluetooth keyboard/mouse? Have you tried the bluetooth connection yet? The bluetooth spec is 30' with no obstructions. It would be nice to know what kind of connectivity you get.

Have you thought about a Squeezebox or Sonos type solution?

nuck
09-15-2006, 01:27 PM
Not yet, Curtis(thank you for the prompt reply, BTW).
I am familiar with the format presented with the sound card I now have, and the features(EQ) will allow me to tailor the sound of each song to my liking in real time. A remote key/mouse will facilitate this function.
Seeing the EQ function on screen seems like a real boost here.
Bluetooth was rec'd from the computer guys, I could still multiplex key/mouse via wifi, throughout the house, with help from geekboy.(SIL).

The rest of the kit seems fine, this will be #3 input to the DAC, a nice variety.

Thank You.

Nuck

(Hi Eddie)

curtis
09-15-2006, 01:33 PM
What DAC do you have?

What is presented to the DAC for decoding, whether it originates from a FLAC file or wav file, will be the same.

nuck
09-15-2006, 01:39 PM
Curtis, you must be sitting on the thing, oh, I see you a VM.Nice.
My DAC is a Classe DAC-1. Other parts are Classe CDT-1 transport CP-50 pre and A300amp. Alternate cdp is Rotel cdp 1072. Sonic voices balanced cables, Liberty bi-wire to Psb Stratus Silver speakers.
The digital out from the card will feed to the DAC, remote will let me listen, see and save settings, and burn or save in real time.

Thank You.

curtis
09-15-2006, 02:18 PM
Great...so you are sending video as well.

nuck
09-15-2006, 02:26 PM
Sorry, the tv out from the video card will send to the tv downstairs to see what I am doing, as well as see the EQ functions. Forgot to mention that.

Thank You.

curtis
09-15-2006, 02:55 PM
For me, that is something I wanted to avoid. I did not want to have to use the TV to enjoy my music.

nuck
09-15-2006, 03:51 PM
Curtis, the tv out is only to view what I am doing with the sound card and it's miriad options. The tuning of the audio is all I need, as my kit has zero tonals, I need to tune up a few older recordings to bring them to life in my room. The tv out lets me see the audio functions on a different floor than the pc.

curtis
09-15-2006, 04:00 PM
how do you choose what song(s) you want to play?

nuck
09-15-2006, 04:16 PM
The playlists are available by the program from Creative Labs, but a better listing and format are from Windows Media. It works well from Windows xp pro.
Either play a sample I made (Clapton Unplugged) and copied well in the Blaster format(forget the extension) and Windows lossless. 20kb for 3 mins! (doh!) But I have tons of space.

curtis
09-15-2006, 05:56 PM
What I was getting at is that you need to use the display downstairs to select songs...right?

nuck
09-15-2006, 06:26 PM
Curtis, I will use the display downstairs to see what the puter is doing upstairs. The display(lower) will be used in conjunction with the remote key/mouse to tune the sound card for particular songs or moods. From the perfect sound I achieve, I will be able to save the song as tuned.
All I really want is a fully functional puter in the listening room, but the recent investment lives upstairs, I will have a parallel usage(inside my listening space).

curtis
09-15-2006, 06:47 PM
OK...got it now.

curtis
09-18-2006, 10:35 AM
Stereophile recently reviewed the Squeezebox and Sonos system:

http://stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/906slim/


http://stereophile.com/mediaservers/1006sonos/
From this statement though I don't think Mr. Atkinson understands about networking:

The beauty to me of a distributed-music system is that the noisy PC can be in a different room, and for that you need two ZP80s.

marshhayden
02-23-2011, 09:30 AM
I love the Squeezebox. I rip everything in 256kbps MP3 is compatible with everything else is fine and serves the purposes of my music. Serious critical listening, I use the disc player.

Bigg35
02-06-2012, 06:53 AM
Some questions I am trying to find answers to

1. I see that most of you rip your cd's to FLAC but still compress the file by 50%. Does this not degrade the SQ any at all? If you are ripping your cd's via EAC, then is it still compressed 50% or is it ripped to the exact same native bit rate?

2. What is the point of a usb dac?

3. What is the cheapest streaming devise that is capable of at least 24/96 or higher?

curtis
02-06-2012, 09:03 AM
1. I see that most of you rip your cd's to FLAC but still compress the file by 50%. Does this not degrade the SQ any at all? If you are ripping your cd's via EAC, then is it still compressed 50% or is it ripped to the exact same native bit rate?
No, it does not degrade the sound quality. The resulting playback is still bit for bit the same as the original. The compression is like zipping a document. It compresses what it can without losses.

The interface to the FLAC compression engine allows you to change the amount of compression. The default is 50%. You can turn it up or down. Turning up the compression just requires the CPU to do more work during compression, and de-compression.



2. What is the point of a usb dac?
The same reason for any other DAC, just that the input is via USB, which all computers have nowadays.



3. What is the cheapest streaming devise that is capable of at least 24/96 or higher?
That one I do not know.

Dark Ranger
02-06-2012, 10:08 AM
Hi Bigg,


1. I see that most of you rip your cd's to FLAC but still compress the file by 50%. Does this not degrade the SQ any at all? If you are ripping your cd's via EAC, then is it still compressed 50% or is it ripped to the exact same native bit rate?

As curtis mentioned, FLAC can be described like a ZIP file. You get lossless quality during playback, yet the file will require less storage space than uncompressed PCM (e.g. WAV). In addition, FLAC offers improved tagging capabilities over some other lossless formats (e.g. WAV).

Go with FLAC unless you really don't care about tagging and have lots of hard drive space to burn.


2. What is the point of a usb dac?

Most computers (especially laptops) are not optimized for high-quality audio playback. An external USB DAC allows digital-to-analog conversion away from electrical noise and interference. In addition, most external DACs have better quality audio components than an average computer.


3. What is the cheapest streaming devise that is capable of at least 24/96 or higher?

Unfortunately I do not have any recommendations either. Most wireless streaming devices only support up to 24/96 and will down-sample content higher than that. Bandwidth becomes an issue at those resolutions and the average home wireless network (especially 802.11g) probably wouldn't give a satisfactory experience.

scape
02-14-2012, 06:13 AM
for music streaming i went with two options:

one option i did is that i converted an old desktop into a music server using vlc (there are free vlc remote controller apps for phones) and have a decent sound card plug in to my stereo. vlc is free software and is available for all the major operating systems. there is also options for windows media player and winamp software to become media servers, i believe itunes has options too. all 3 are capable of also playing movie files and performing chapter advanced functions. I'm pretty happy with it but the computer I chose does not do video (it's old) so i may upgrade it to a better system. on my phone is the vlc remote app (the others i mentioned have remote apps too) and i can bring up my songs and play them off the server to my stereo. my pc is quiet and small so i put it near my stereo, my next pc will be a solid state system with minimal to no fans.

the other option is that i have a bluetooth wireless gateway plugged in to my stereo, i stream from my phone any music that could normally be streamed to a headset. this option is nice because i can bring up pandora on my phone and set it down and my stereo will play along nicely. the quality exceeded my expectations, and i feel it is better than most mp3 players that would be directly connected. the benefit of this, to me, is when i get a call the music is paused automatically and the handset rings, and will pickup and play automatically when the call is done.
i know that does not answer your questions in the OP, but should give some insight to how others make it work for them.
for lossless i choose flac, if it's an album i do not care about much i'll go with a lower bitrate.

apastron
10-07-2012, 12:20 PM
I got this music server:
http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/620191
It is very much convenient and saves some space when combined with small amplifier like this http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/612512
I recommend this combo when space matters.

dorz11
11-03-2012, 09:37 AM
I got this music server:
http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/620191
It is very much convenient and saves some space when combined with small amplifier like this http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/612512
I recommend this combo when space matters.
Nice server and there are others like it. But $2k? I don't get why a hard drive, cd drive and sound card warrant that price.

apastron
11-10-2012, 05:25 AM
Nice server and there are others like it. But $2k? I don't get why a hard drive, cd drive and sound card warrant that price.
I was surprised myself but :
1. Very good motherboard with an s pdif header ( or sound card with coaxial output )
2. Very good small factor aluminum case matching amplifier and fan less design
3. This vortex box with commercial license to create / play Apple files
4. Convenience to use and sexy look :) Drop a CD / DVD into the box and in 10 minutes new album appears on iPad remote control.

This similar question to why people with computers buy X-box :) For high res files sound is better comparing to my mac mini - toslink is only 96/24 and is 25 years old technology, not matching digital coaxial 192/24

Redeka
11-23-2012, 01:44 PM
Now that the squeeze box has been discontinued, what is the next best suggestion? Sonos?

dorz11
01-05-2013, 02:01 PM
I broke down and just bought a Sonos Connect ($350). If you buy the Connect from Crutchfield you get the bridge for free (normally $50). I haven't fooled with streamers before so this will be my intro. I'm hoping the sound is decent. I do have a DAC so i'll go from the Sonos digital out into the DAC then DAC out and into my system. I also just bought a Roku box as well so I'm taking on the modern world as my new years resolution!!

Maggie777
10-23-2014, 04:22 AM
Hi
I also love squeez box I think it is one of the best music software around.

AR2ax man
12-09-2014, 11:20 AM
Hi,

My new streaming setup I am trying really has surprised me. I was looking into buying a new streamer or USB DAC. Instead I decided to hold off and reconfigure my current system. I have the Ascend towers running off this setup. It has really improved my music on my PC, no more fatigue!

1) JRiver 20 Windows, playing wav files as sourced -->
2) OPPO BDP 93 acting as DLNA streaming music over wired Ethernet from JRiver Media server -->
3) OPPO sending out RCA outputs using Blue Jean cable interconnects to Anthem MRX 300 -->
4) Anthem MRX 300 running ARC -->
5) Anthem pre-outs to Parasound 2125

Posting this because I was reading up a lot on different forums to improve my setup, most saying don't use analog into my Anthem MRX, cannot be good since ARC sends to Digital then back to analog, to many conversions. Also all the buzz about only way to go for analog with OPPO is the higher end BDP 95 or 105. Just wanted to share my experience, in getting to listen to my first moment were I felt like a veil was really lifted off my speakers, and did not have to buy any new gear!

curtis
12-09-2014, 12:50 PM
Posting this because I was reading up a lot on different forums to improve my setup, most saying don't use analog into my Anthem MRX, cannot be good since ARC sends to Digital then back to analog, to many conversions.
Have you tried a digital connection between your Oppo and Anthem? A HDMI (as opposed to coax/optical) will give hi-res multichannel ability.

AR2ax man
12-09-2014, 02:44 PM
Hi Curtis,

Yes I did try all that, was not happy with the results, which lead me to try the analog connections. My Theory, is that I am thinking by have the streamed music going through the Oppo DAC, somehow reduced the jitter and smoothed things out as compared to using Digital which just past everything Digital to the Anthem. Any thoughts? All I know now, is that my Ascend towers now really put my previous B&W towers in the dust. Which before I tried this, was not as much of a difference to me.