Hey Dave...

[Trench]

...everyone's in agreement that Ascend sound great. And I know that you said, in effect, "Why should speakers look like furniture? The a/v components don't..." But I'm salivating over the offerings at av123.com, the Rockets -- but the center is HUGE and the surrounds are dipoles, eh. Why not offer your great speakers in wood for those who would pay extra for it? I bought a UFW-10 in maple over there and it looks great. I'd love to have maple speakers to complete the set... why not offer more expensive for those who will pay? I suspect a lot of people would buy. Just two cents.

[bikeman]

One off customs are very expensive. Owning a factory in China that produces tens of thousands of cabinets a year cuts the cost to a fraction of one-offs. That in a nut shell is the reason. Mabye Dave F. can provide more info.

David

[Trench]

One off customs are very expensive. Owning a factory in China that produces tens of thousands of cabinets a year cuts the cost to a fraction of one-offs. That in a nut shell is the reason. Mabye Dave F. can provide more info.

David

Thanks. I wasn't talking at all about one-offs, but rather a new line of wood cabinets at a higher cost.

[Quinn]

You can get a raw MDF cabinet and have someone veneer it for you. But the rounded edges that are part of how good the Ascends are are hard to veneer.

BTW- You'd need to step up the the Onix Ref 1 to compete with the 170SE's sound quality.

[davef]

Hi Trench,

Welcome to forum!

It all comes down to what you (customers) are willing to spend for such a finish. Our products use some of the highest quality / highest performing components available... The price increase would be significant.

The real question is how much are you willing to spend for such a finish? Would you be willing to pay somewhere in the ballpark of $550/pr for furniture grade CBM-170SE? Especially considering that for a few dollars more you can have a pair of CMT-340 SE in our standard finish?

Even at around $550/pr in a furniture grade finish, the CBM-170 SE would offer an incredible value... I *still* have been unable to find a loudspeaker that uses SEAS tweeters for anywhere near this price -- in any style finish..

Tough call on this one -- and something that I re-examine often.

[scoobydufus]

Just my 2 cents.... I understand and appreciate your strategy or philosophy of providing a stellar performer at lowest possible price by cutting out the costs that really don't matter (such as cosmetic appearance). However, I would question whether or not you're actually losing some potential customers by not at least offering hi-quality veneer finishes. Sure it may be a significant adder, but people know that they're getting a damn good performing speaker and some of them may very likely be willing to pay for quality finish to match it's performance.

Of course, I'm sure there are extra hassles and costs from a business standpoint by offering other finish options, but I wouldn't think they would outweigh the potential gains. Or do they? :)

[BradJudy]

Dave,

You know I would buy them or perhaps, at this point, I would have bought them. Actually, if you offered a nice veneer finish for the 340s, I might replace my three fronts and move my personally done 170s to another room.

[shane55]

Well just to voice the obvious...
I would not buy the wood veneer. Given a choice, even at the same price-point, I would get the all-black. I prefer it.

To me, it's not furniture. I want it to disappear aurally and visually.
No WAF conflicts. :D

shane

[bikeman]

No WAF conflicts. :D
Amen to that.

David

[chasw98]

I agree with the minimalist black look. I just finished helping a friend build a center channel speaker that is as big as the av123 "big foot". We were able to build it for $300.00 unfinished. He wanted that fancy rosewood finish that av123 offers on their speakers. We found out the veneer alone would cost as much as what we spent on the speaker. He went with satin black. Now this is not a production run for a factory where costs would be less, but you get the idea. Not to mention the careful handling involved for the beautiful finishes, one scratch, and its B-stock! Just my .02 :D

Chuck

[Jonnyozero3]

Hi Trench,

Welcome to forum!

It all comes down to what you (customers) are willing to spend for such a finish. Our products use some of the highest quality / highest performing components available... The price increase would be significant.

The real question is how much are you willing to spend for such a finish? Would you be willing to pay somewhere in the ballpark of $550/pr for furniture grade CBM-170SE? Especially considering that for a few dollars more you can have a pair of CMT-340 SE in our standard finish?

Even at around $550/pr in a furniture grade finish, the CBM-170 SE would offer an incredible value... I *still* have been unable to find a loudspeaker that uses SEAS tweeters for anywhere near this price -- in any style finish..

Tough call on this one -- and something that I re-examine often.

An extra $200 for a furniture grade finish? I don't think that is too bad. I'll stick with satin black for my HT, but for my living room, I'd seriously consider springing for the extra cost to get something that looks nice (because it'd be 2ch and the cost hit wouldn't be as bad, like for the 7.1 setup downstairs). Offering the CBM-170DE "Decorator's Edition" (hehe) might not be a bad idea. Such a model would address one of the only criticisms that I hear on the forums - looks. But of course these comments are often from folks that haven't seen them in person. :p

Could you pull something off that is worthwhile at about $450-$485 a pair? I think splitting the difference between the price of the regular 170 and regular 340 would make more sense from a product-tier standpoint. But then again, I'm sure you don't want to half-@$$ it and end up with a finish that isn't up to snuff.

Maybe you could offer a version of the 340 with some great finishes for a trial run and see how it sells?

I dunno..it's a tough choice. But, I'm glad to hear you examine it now and then.

[davef]

Any of you notice how much extra Axiom is charging for their new real-wood finishes? For a pair of bookshelf speakers, the upcharge is around $220 for cherry.

Definitely gives me something to think about...

[Jonnyozero3]

Even if the sales of a premium version are not super impressive from an accountant's standpoint, I would think that the reputation of a high-end look to go with high-end sound would attract a few of the more....image conscious $$ buyers. I'd venture a guess that this may generate some additional buzz in print and online in some circles that may have scoffed at Ascend's offerings before, This additional word of mouth and press may actually increase sales down in the budget-finish bracket where your strength already lies.

So, you make slim profits on the premium models, but possibly generate greater dividends by exposing your product to a new demographic which would in turn, if received positively, generate more sales from your current bread-and-butter crowd because the budget shopper who observes the high-ender's opinions thinks, "hey...if these golden-eared, golden-check-booked audiophiles with kilo-buck equipment love the ascends, imagine how I'd like them...and I can get them cheaper with the standard finish! wooohoo!"

Keep in mind I know jack about the business world :P But these are the thoughts I have when I think about what the benefits might be. The only downsides that I can think of, from my perspective as a customer and someone not "in the know" is that this would create additional workload to get the process spun up, and if they don't sell as well as you expect, you might lose money on the start-up/setup cost to get the program going.

But, if sales pick up on the lower end, I still think it could be a cost effective move in terms of image.

Just thinking out loud :cool:

[rajacat]

I fall into the minimalist group. Sound is number one for me and I prefer that the speakers have a low visual profile but envelope the listener is aural ecstasy. I like the Ascend design philosopy which aims to bring audiophile sound quality at a reasonable price to the consumer.Premium components over fancy veneer. Perhaps a middle ground would be to have a lighter color such as an off white or baize, as a no cost option, which might blend more discreetly ,than black, with some listening environments.

Raja

[scoobydufus]

Even if the sales of a premium version are not super impressive from an accountant's standpoint, I would think that the reputation of a high-end look to go with high-end sound would attract a few of the more....image conscious $$ buyers. I'd venture a guess that this may generate some additional buzz in print and online in some circles that may have scoffed at Ascend's offerings before, This additional word of mouth and press may actually increase sales down in the budget-finish bracket where your strength already lies.

So, you make slim profits on the premium models, but possibly generate greater dividends by exposing your product to a new demographic which would in turn, if received positively, generate more sales from your current bread-and-butter crowd because the budget shopper who observes the high-ender's opinions thinks, "hey...if these golden-eared, golden-check-booked audiophiles with kilo-buck equipment love the ascends, imagine how I'd like them...and I can get them cheaper with the standard finish! wooohoo!"

Keep in mind I know jack about the business world :P But these are the thoughts I have when I think about what the benefits might be. The only downsides that I can think of, from my perspective as a customer and someone not "in the know" is that this would create additional workload to get the process spun up, and if they don't sell as well as you expect, you might lose money on the start-up/setup cost to get the program going.

But, if sales pick up on the lower end, I still think it could be a cost effective move in terms of image.

Just thinking out loud :cool:


Well stated! This is similar to my thoughts from a business and marketing standpoint that I really didn't express in my earlier post. I don't know all of the business details (costs and efforts) of what it takes to add the optional line of high quality finishes, but I can't imagine it would hurt in the long run.

I greatly respect Dave's philosophy of keeping costs as low as possible without sacrificing stellar performance, but I'd like to also point out a bit of danger in that approach from a marketing perspective, at least in my opinion. By marketing, I don't mean advertising, but rather produce a "marketable" product via cosmetic appeal. I began researching speakers very in depth since this past January. I can honestly say that when I first stumbled upon Ascend Acoustics, of all the internet direct companies I found, Ascends were quickly placed on the bottom of my list simply because they "looked" too plain and simple to be a true contender. I didn't pay much attention to Ascends at that point. The lack of finish options and a somewhat limited product line contributed entirely to my "first impression" - an important concept in marketing. Of course, what do I know? After several months of forum research, I eventually discovered and was convinced that Ascends are the real deal. In fact I just placed my order on Monday for the 170SEs (just the start of my HT). Anyway, my point is that although Dave is having success at what he set out to do, I can imagine significant growth potential in his business. And exactly as Jonnyozero3 has stated, better finishes would certainly attract the richer audiophiles who expect speakers to look as good as they sound. As word gets out, it'll ultimately help to boost sales on the cheaper versions for the more cost-conscious buyers as well.... kinda like a "trickle down" effect.

There's plenty of people who may still prefer the simple black look, and that's expected. In fact, for a dedicated home theater, I probably prefer it, too. But if this was for an audio system in my living room, I'm one of those who would look elsewhere for a more refined and eye-pleasing finish. Of course, everybody is different.

I hope none of this is offending to Dave. Like I said earlier, I very much appeciate his approach to his business - seeing how cheap you can actually design and manufacturer a real contender in the hi-fi market. I just think he can still maintain that approach but still offer better finishes even if those optional finishes offer no more profit than the standard black. The important thing is catering to all tastes of prospective buyers resulting in greater exposure and potentially greater endorsements from the audio community.

[shane55]

Good points Scoob...
I generally agree with you and know that we who prefer the minimalist aesthetic also realize that there are a myriad of different tastes and appreciations and applications out there.

Yes, Dave has parsed the market down (or up?) to a group who are looking for a specific quality at a specific price-point and with a specific look. There may be some, but I'm sure the ones who have purchased Ascends and really, really wish they were wood-veneered is probably less than 2% (just a guess... don't flame).

On the other hand, I'm sure there are some who have not purchased Ascends simply because they are not veneered. I can't even venture a guess as to what their market share is. I know, however that if Dave wants to court them... more power to him, so long as it doesn't distract from the current business model and ethic.;)

I know many people who actually would rather have a speaker system that 'looks good' than 'sounds good'. Adequate sound is all they require and blending-in with their decor is key. Ok... so if they were to get GREAT sound on top of 'their' appreciated looks... bonus!

Another scenario would be those who are initially attracted to the mass appeal of the wood who would otherwise never have given Ascend a moment's notice... and see the 'black' and think it looks better... or would fit their environment better than the wood. Anything is possible.

I agree that by creating a 'new line' of speakers, Ascend could open new avenues for additional revenue, but they also may attract a clientele that they are not currently marketing to. Not meaning to sound elitist, it’s just what happens when you open up to a wider portion of the public. And… that may be OK.

shane

[Lou-the-dog]

Another twist and one that I have witnessed... think of a small Ma and Pa restaurant that serves absolutely delicious food at reasonable cost and has somewhat of a unique hole in the wall atmosphere AND the place is packed wall to wall with folks wanting a taste of the down-home style food, atmosphere and reasonable cost. Now, the place burns down and the owner replaces it with a modern and hugely expanded facility, raises the cost somewhat to pay for it but essentially serves the same food. Guess what, the old patrons view it as just another "chain style" restaurant, patronage drops like a rock and the place quickly goes belly up.

To me, Ascend is about high quality sound at reasonable prices designed and serviced by down-home folk. Ascend simply fills a niche that other audio companies don't. That said, for those that want custom veneered cabinets it would be great if Ascend could provide those customers a quality craftsman to supply this (much like their custom painted cabinets). Don't get me wrong, I dream of a custom veneered or painted set of 340's myself BUT I'd hate to see Ascend prioritize looks before sound engineering.

Randy

[ChrisC]

I would definatley purchase the real wood finish. I never thought of myself as someone who would purchase speakers partly based on how they look. However, my listening area is in my main living/entertaining area in my home. There is a certain theme or style to the room if you will, and yes it would be nice to have speakers that "fit" in with the room more. They produce such a beautiful sound that people (and the fun) naturally are attracted there. It would be nice to have them give that extra ummph in the room.
Of course in a dedicated theater it wouldnt matter at all.

[Trench]

Perhaps a middle ground would be to have a lighter color such as an off white or baize, as a no cost option, which might blend more discreetly ,than black, with some listening environments.

Raja

Baize?

[PLincoln]

Baize?

beige...i don't think that was difficult to figure out....light brown/tan i presume

[SteveCallas]

More SKUs = more problems :D

If someone truly wants the veneer finish, what's stopping them from buying the raw MDF and either paying a cabinet maker to veneer them or doing it themself?

[BradJudy]

If someone truly wants the veneer finish, what's stopping them from buying the raw MDF and either paying a cabinet maker to veneer them or doing it themself?

That's fine if you either have the skills or can find a cabinet person to do the job. The job is challenging (I know some folks will just tell you not to even try that radius - they told me that, and you would likely have to paint part of it like I did), small (i.e. small potatoes compared to most jobs because it's just a veneering, not even building the cabinet), expensive (it would be more expensive to hire someone for a one-off job than to do volume production) and work to find someone to do it (how many people even know where to get this kind of work done in their town?).

Sure, I'd love to contract someone like Jim Salk to build cabinets for me, but they would cost many times more than the speakers. I could go a bit cheaper with someplace like RAW or RAD, but I expect I'd have to have them build the entire cabinet (without radiused corners all around) and I'm not sure if Ascend would warranty it like they do with their own MDF cabinets.

Yep, more SKUs is more work for Ascend, but I think it's a worthwhile venture for them and I expect it would be far more popular than the bare MDF cabs or the custom paint job ones.

[Jonnyozero3]

That's fine if you either have the skills or can find a cabinet person to do the job....The job is challenging....expensive.... and work to find someone to do it.....



Multiple ditto's.

Don't forget that some of us don't have the time to spare either.