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BGHD
12-01-2005, 08:49 AM
Some Monster power conditioners still available at the GG closeouts. Should I pick one up or is it just a glorified surge protector with fancy flashing lights? Unless I could get a Monster one at a ridiculous price, what other brands to consider (PureAV? Panamax)? Currently, just using a $20 Costco surge protector and feel a little nervous having so much stuff plugged into it. Just thinking of new things to buy/research.

Lou-the-dog
12-01-2005, 11:48 AM
Currently, just using a $20 Costco surge protector and feel a little nervous having so much stuff plugged into it. Just thinking of new things to buy/research.

Consider a Brickwall unit. I feel very comfortable with it's surge suppression capabilities and Brickwall claims that the unit provides pretty decent filtering to boot...even tho it is not sold as a "conditioner" per se. Group buys pop up from time to time to save a few bucks.

Randy

Lee Bailey
12-01-2005, 02:28 PM
It depends on how good your power is in your area. Personally, I think that voltage regulation is the most important. Add to that some noise filters, surge protection, and possibly a UPS.

If you have a newer TV or PJ that uses one of those $400.00 lamps, you'll want a battery backup. There is a cooling fan inside that needs to stay running even after you power down the TV. Abrupt power outages can cause the lamp to pop.

I've got an APC AV H15 unit on order. Provides 12 outlets of surge and noise protection, plus voltage regulation. I can always add an external UPS later if I feel the need.

tjennings
12-01-2005, 03:28 PM
Thats a great point Lee, I've got a PS Audio ultimate outlet that does passive noise / surge protection and I'm quite happy with, but I need to get a UPS for those times when the power goes out... happens to my fairly frequently, but luckily not since August when I got my LCD projector HDTV (at least not when it was powered up).

rajacat
12-01-2005, 03:52 PM
How do you like your Sony projector? Does it stand up well in comparison to a regular LCD television? I know that won't be as sharp but does it handle high definition adequately?

Royal

tjennings
12-01-2005, 08:29 PM
I have an LCD projector, not a ceiling mounted projector... not sure if that is what you meant or not. For HDTV it is incredibly sharp... I mean, it IS an HDTV after all! ;) Wish I lived in an area where we had more HD programming available... supposedly it is on its way next year as local tv stations upgrade their equipment.

BGHD
12-01-2005, 08:55 PM
Thanks for the tips. I'll look into the Brickwall ones. Lee, I've read good reviews of the APC H15 you mention too. Time to start scouring the net for some deals. I'll assume most of y'all think Monster's a little overpriced, even discounted at GG.

rajacat
12-01-2005, 10:02 PM
Yes, I was referring to a ceiling type projector some of which use LCD technology.

Lee Bailey
12-02-2005, 10:40 AM
If you want a unit with battery backup, voltage regulation, and filtering, look at the Belkin units. The Model AP30800-10 can be had for under $300.00 on some of the web sites. For some reason, BB wants $599.99 for it, while the Belkin site sells it for only $399.99. Go figure.

You can check it out at Belkin's website here:
PureAV Model AP30800-10 (http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=195291)

BGHD
12-05-2005, 11:26 PM
Anyone in the camp that my $20 Costco surge protector is good enough?

Lou-the-dog
12-06-2005, 04:58 AM
Probably is fine actually. I read somewhere that MOV based surge protectors should be replaced every year or two because the MOV's gradually lose their spike absorption abilities with every high current hit.

Randy

rajacat
12-06-2005, 08:44 AM
About a month ago, I was at my computer and suddenly sparks were flying from the surge protector and the scent of burning was in the air. At the power pole, a line had broken and crossed with the ground line from my internet cable. My cable modem, two clock radios, the electrical brain for the stove, the Dish Network modem/DVR and various light bulbs were all fried. The bottom line was that my computer and accessories were all protected by a garden variety surge protector that can be bought at any hardware store. I'm not sure that if I was not present to shut off the power that the cheap surge devise would have continued to protect the computer.

I now have the Costco surge protector at various strategic locations. It appears to be much more robust than the hardware store surge protector that saved my system.

Lee Bailey
12-06-2005, 10:03 AM
Just about any surge protector is better than none. The advantage to some of the higher cost units, is that if your equipment is damaged, they have coverage to help pay for the replacement/repair of the units, including the surge protector. Just be sure to keep your receipts. ;)

bikeman
12-06-2005, 12:21 PM
The advantage to some of the higher cost units, is that if your equipment is damaged, they have coverage to help pay for the replacement/repair of the units, including the surge protector. Just be sure to keep your receipts. ;)
Collecting on these warranties is very difficult. There are many ways that equipment can be fried even with the best protection. The warranty is very specific about coverage. There have been multiple threads on this on other forums. The warranty is not what most folks are led to believe.

David

BGHD
12-06-2005, 12:25 PM
Lee, in an earlier post you mentioned the importance of 'voltage regulation.' In AVS, 1/2 the people say it made a difference in their A/V PQ and SQ and the others say they saw no difference. I'm mainly checking out either the APC H10 or H15, which have voltage regulation (in addition to surge protection & other features). Did you notice any improvement? Worth the extra $$ over the plain ol' surge protector?

BTW, I also have the Costco specials lying all around the house also and saw they retail for $50 at Fry's. So they're a steal at <$20.

Lee Bailey
12-08-2005, 11:52 AM
I won't be able to tell you the difference yet. It is still being shipped to me, and I won't be opening the present to myself until Christmas! ;) Since the unit does not 'regenerate' the AC like the much more expensive units from PS Audio and some others (you're talking about a $1500 to $2000 unit vs $400), I don't expect any miracles.

Again, the better the power in your area, the less differences you will probably see. I'm sure in most areas, that voltage is probably lower during the day than it is late at night. Of course, you need a metering system with a running chart to track that kinda stuff, unless you want to hang around all day with a volt meter, and check it every 1/2 or so! :D

As for the equipment insurance, I'm sure there are some 'requirements' that one will have to fulfill to get a company to pay for damages their unit should have stopped. Otherwise, it wouldn't be offered as part of the price, it would be an 'option'.

BGHD
12-14-2005, 09:07 PM
Well, bought a TrippLite UPS from Costco with voltage reg (who knows if I need it though), but it's going back. Not sure of the importance of the number (I thought the higher the better), but it's surge protector is rated to <500 joules and I really don't need the UPS function. So, ended up getting the the APC H15 also. I doubt I'll notice a difference in SQ/PQ, but at least I'll have a bunch of cool lights to stare at.

BGHD
01-08-2006, 08:19 AM
Finally received the H15. No noticeable SQ/PQ improvement so far, but the thing's well-built w/ plenty of outlets for my equipment. I only wish it had 3 sets of coaxial in/outs for my 2 sat inputs and OTA antenna. Could be snake oil I just bought, but it was much cheaper than any Monster power conditioners out there, so I'm satisfied w/ my purchase.

bikeman
01-08-2006, 09:00 AM
From OneCall:

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?PromotionID=259&PMNCODE=pdmonhts35kmkii&id=29477&BCPID=229

David

Ad-Rok
01-21-2006, 10:16 AM
Anyone in the camp that my $20 Costco surge protector is good enough?

ABSOLUTELY ,YES. [Note: see "The Power Conditioning Lie" in the thread immediately below this http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=873.] It was mostly true in 1979 when the old-schoolers were building speakers, definitely true in 2000 when this article was written, and it's unequivocally and scientifically proven true today. I fell victim to, shall we say, a Monster hoax ;-) in the past (I even fell victim to the <gasp!> Better Off Somewhere Else hoax too)!

Admittedly, without knowing what amplifier you are using to drive your speakers, it's hard to make a complete assessment. But Bryston doesn't say "plug our amplifier directly into its own wall socket, our circuitry is all you will ever need" in its manuals for nothing. Unless you are using a truly abysmal amp with broken or thirty-year-old parts, you need nothing more than a simple, well-grounded surge protector on your electronics. You might go with one of those battery backup jobs if you care to slow-power-down your components in an area with frequent power outages as someone above suggested, but as for "power conditioning," I say don't believe the hype.

And while we're on the subject of Monster hoaxes, buy inexpensive well-terminated and shielded cables from the Chinese makers that supply everyone through someone like pccables.com. Monster, Kimber and all of the rest are just giant hoaxes, *especially* with digital signals, which have ZERO variation whether coming over (to paraphrase the article) a coat-hanger, a lamp-cord or a kimber cable wrapped in rose petals made by buxom south american virgins.

Let the disagreements begin </me puts on flame-retardant suit>, but this has been researched and proven time and time again. You will not hear a difference and your equipment won't live a day longer with so-called "line conditioners." Think of the money you'll save...you could outfit your bedroom with some more Ascends :-).

Hope this helps some!

Best,
Adam

Ad-Rok
01-21-2006, 10:30 AM
Finally received the H15. No noticeable SQ/PQ improvement so far, but the thing's well-built w/ plenty of outlets for my equipment. I only wish it had 3 sets of coaxial in/outs for my 2 sat inputs and OTA antenna. Could be snake oil I just bought, but it was much cheaper than any Monster power conditioners out there, so I'm satisfied w/ my purchase.

:( Just noticed that you went ahead...oh well! Perhaps I could convince you to sell it on Ebay and buy some Telarc discs to listen to? ;) You'll *definitely* hear a difference there as they are about the finest master recording makers I've come across. Anyway, enjoy and good luck.

Best,
Adam

BGHD
01-22-2006, 07:38 AM
Perhaps I could convince you to sell it on Ebay and buy some Telarc discs to listen to? ;)
Funny you mentioned this. Just bought the Telarc hybrid SACD 1812 Overture last week to test my system.

drewface
02-06-2006, 02:56 PM
i've got an Acoustic Research surge protector that said it had some conditioning on the package. I got it for $40 at Best Buy, and it's been fine for me. Like someone said a couple posts up, you should check out the power conditioning lie thing. I used to get sucked into the "monster lies" as well, but have read a number of articles debunking such statements over the past couple years.

Lee Bailey
02-16-2006, 07:39 PM
On the subject of hype, some pretty reputable companies are making these conditioners now. Whereas Monster has seemed to always be running a hyped up marketing scheme.

So far I like my APC H15. I did find one thing strange though. I had ALL my equipment running through it, and noticed at high volumes the sound was in my opinion, restricted. I disconnected my receiver and subwoofer from it and are running them on PS Audio Ultimate Outlet. Sounds better, and the picture quality for some reason improved as well. I'll keep it this way.

rajacat
04-10-2006, 09:26 PM
Check out the deals on these Powervar UPS/power conditioners! The units actually have isolation transformers in addition to the other features. I bought the ABCDE 350 for about $50 but the shipping is close to $50 also. You can get the UPS/power conditioners or just the power conditioner alone. These units are used by hospitals and other mission critical entities. They appear to be slightly used and the wholeseller must have bought a shipload. Definitely a step above Monster Power Centers which do not have isolation transformers. BTW my unit retails for over $600. http://www.powervar.com/
I'm awaiting delivery and will report my impressions.
http://search.ebay.com/powervar_W0QQfnuZ1QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ3QQxpufuZx

Lee Bailey
04-11-2006, 09:06 AM
Did you notice the power rating on these units? Only 280 watts. You're not going to be able to run much on just one of these units.

rajacat
04-11-2006, 09:51 AM
Yeah, I noticed the power rating but I will be able to run my Panasonic XR55 because it only draws 135W which leaves some room for some other small devices such as the power supply for my Squeezebox. :)

curtis
04-11-2006, 10:41 AM
Yeah, I noticed the power rating but I will be able to run my Panasonic XR55 because it only draws 135W which leaves some room for some other small devices such as the power supply for my Squeezebox. :)
But how much power does it draw when it is doing this?:

Output Power - Home Theater Mode 100W per channel (6 channels, 1kHz, 6 ohms, 0.9% THD)

Granted, you would probably never do that...but I got to think that at some point it needs more than 135W.

rajacat
04-11-2006, 11:01 AM
But how much power does it draw when it is doing this?:

Output Power - Home Theater Mode 100W per channel (6 channels, 1kHz, 6 ohms, 0.9% THD)

Granted, you would probably never do that...but I got to think that at some point it needs more than 135W.

Does this mean that the Panny will require 600W 120VAC at max. output? The spec sheet states that the power draw is 135W. If this is the case then I quess I made a bad purchase and will only be able to use the unit for the Squeezebox. Woe is me! I only listen to 2 channel but that would mean that there is not much headroom. When the spec sheet states that the power consumption is only 135W why would it not state that, at times, 600W would be required? Power consumption in standby mode is .2W. On well, I can use it as a great UPS for my laptop.

curtis
04-11-2006, 11:22 AM
Also remember that no amp is 100% efficient, so it would draw more than 600 watts.

rajacat
04-11-2006, 11:35 AM
Also remember that no amp is 100% efficient, so it would draw more than 600 watts.

I'm still searching for better sound quality. Is it the amp (XR55), room accoustics or , perhaps, the 340SE's or not the proper match for my ears? Another owner of the XR55 said that the SQ was noticably improved with the addition of a Powervar conditioner so I searched ebay and found these units, among others, at a good price so I decided to take the gamble. They do have isolation transformers.Perhaps I should have sprung for the higher capacity unit. Maybe I'm just following the wrong path with incremental changes to my system and the speakers are the problem. Any suggestions?

I wonder what transient power the UPS will handle before it shuts down.

curtis
04-11-2006, 11:46 AM
Only you can be the judge of what sounds good to you. Can you pinpoint what you think is lacking?

That said, I have heard my 340's with different electronics, in different rooms, and compared to different speakers. I am of the belief that nothing makes more difference than the speakers and the room.

rajacat
04-11-2006, 12:08 PM
Only you can be the judge of what sounds good to you. Can you pinpoint what you think is lacking?

That said, I have heard my 340's with different electronics, in different rooms, and compared to different speakers. I am of the belief that nothing makes more difference than the speakers and the room.

1. Bass response is lacking
2. Treble is harsh on most recordings which results in aural fatigue
3. The speakers sound much better with very high grade cd's like the ones you use when you want to demonstrate your system but with average sources listener fatigue becomes a problem.

On the other hand, the Ascends image very well and have a wide soundstage.
Maybe a sub would help. I did insert a DAC between the Squeezebox and the Panny and that seemed to help the harshness a bit even though, since the XR55 is all digital, a DAC should not be necessary. Could the problem be the SQ from the Squeezebox? I do have a surplus linear power supply,for the SB, that I will try when I get the chance to make the few changes to it requiring some soldering.

curtis
04-11-2006, 01:21 PM
1. Bass response is lacking
2. Treble is harsh on most recordings which results in aural fatigue
3. The speakers sound much better with very high grade cd's like the ones you use when you want to demonstrate your system but with average sources listener fatigue becomes a problem.

Bass response is lacking compared to what? What speakers have you heard that have the bass you want? Despite the improved bass of the SE versions, if you like music with information in the lower octaves, you would do well with a subwoofer.

The treble being harsh to you certainly points to the speakers not being to your liking, especially if you have taken the type to look at issues with the room. You just may be looking for a speaker with slightly rolled off highs.

A DAC is always necessary...what comes out of speakers and what we hear is analog. Whether you use the internal DACs in the Panny, or an external DAC will be a matter of taste, but again, I do not think it will make a huge difference. A digital amplifier amplifies an analog signal, not a digital signal.

I have not heard my 340's with an XR55, so I have no idea what it sounds like, but it seems many are happy with it. Your dissatisfaction with the sound in the very least points to this combo not being what you are looking for....if not the speakers alone. For peace of mind, I would try and different receiver.

Also, a lot may have to do with the quality of rips you are putting through your Squeezebox. I rip my MP3's direct from the CDs at 256bits/sec, using CDex and the latest version of LAME. My Squeezebox is connected digitally to my pre/pro.....meaning it is using the DACs on the pre/pro and think it is great for having music on all the time. If I want to just sit and listen, I use the original CD in my Denon 2900.

rajacat
04-11-2006, 02:30 PM
Bass response is lacking compared to what? What speakers have you heard that have the bass you want? Despite the improved bass of the SE versions, if you like music with information in the lower octaves, you would do well with a subwoofer.

The treble being harsh to you certainly points to the speakers not being to your liking, especially if you have taken the type to look at issues with the room. You just may be looking for a speaker with slightly rolled off highs.

A DAC is always necessary...what comes out of speakers and what we hear is analog. Whether you use the internal DACs in the Panny, or an external DAC will be a matter of taste, but again, I do not think it will make a huge difference. A digital amplifier amplifies an analog signal, not a digital signal.

I have not heard my 340's with an XR55, so I have no idea what it sounds like, but it seems many are happy with it. Your dissatisfaction with the sound in the very least points to this combo not being what you are looking for....if not the speakers alone. For peace of mind, I would try and different receiver.

Also, a lot may have to do with the quality of rips you are putting through your Squeezebox. I rip my MP3's direct from the CDs at 256bits/sec, using CDex and the latest version of LAME. My Squeezebox is connected digitally to my pre/pro.....meaning it is using the DACs on the pre/pro and think it is great for having music on all the time. If I want to just sit and listen, I use the original CD in my Denon 2900.

From what I understand, this was discussed on another forum, is that you cannot bypass the internal dac in the Panny like you can in analog amps/receivers, because it is integral to the design of the all digital power amp. So with the SB you will get better SQ if you use the digital out directly to the XR55 which will convert to analog after the signal is amplified just before it exits to the speaker using some sort of digital>analog filter. Maybe I'm confused but doesn't a digital amp amplify a digital signal. If it amplifies an analog signal how is it different from an analog amp? Is the DAC conversion before it is amplified or after? With my old Pioneer I could bypass the SB's internal DAC using the digital out and insert a superior external DAC and then plug it into the Pioneer's analog in. If I did the same with the Panny, the signal would just be reprocessed by its internal digital/analog converter. That said, I still have noticed a slightly less irritable SQ using the DAC with the Panny via the SB digital out. If you use the analog in with the xr55, for some reason I notice obvious decrease in SQ. :confused:

Maybe I should reconnect my old Pioneer and use the DAC with it and see what happens to the SQ.

I rip CDs with EAC>FLAC lossless codec.

Thanks for your responses.

Raja

curtis
04-11-2006, 02:39 PM
Here is a good read on amp classes.......a digital amp is a Class D.
http://www.bcae1.com/ampclass.htm

I'd try the Pioneer and find out what it sounds likes with an external DAC.

curtis
04-11-2006, 02:44 PM
Another good read:
http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,2542,t=Class+D+amplifier&i=55417,00.asp

rajacat
04-11-2006, 03:18 PM
Thanks Curtis,

I will try my Pioneer. I wish I could borrow a tube amp/preamp from someone.

Raja

rajacat
04-14-2006, 01:16 PM
Well, I substituted my old Pioneer receiver for the XR55 and , to my ears, their was a substantial improvement in sound quality especially in the bass output. It seems that the Panny has a "digital sheen" or whatever that was hard on my ears and was fatiguing to listen to for extended periods of time. The improvement bass output would be noticeable to any ears. I am using a DAC with a stock SB3 via digital output. The DAC offers a small but noticable improvement in SQ but the stock SB3 was quite impressive without the external DAC using the analog outputs. I will go over the Panny's rather confusing configuration menu to see if I have made some mistakes but as of today the XR55 is for sale. It is virtually new and I will list it on this site first and then move it on to Audiogon and maybe Ebay.

rajacat
04-14-2006, 01:29 PM
The Powervar UPS arrived yesterday. They shipped me a greater capacity unit than I ordered (800 VA with 6.7A output) which was great because I could run my whole system off of it, but unfortunately it was DOA. This has been my first bad Ebay purchase and I am challenging the payment through my credit card company. I have emailed the company but have not yet received a response. The shipping cost as much as the unit so this situation won't be easy to resolve.

On second thought, the is the second bad purchase, the SoundBridge subwoofer was a joke of a sub that is only useful as an endtable.

bikeman
04-14-2006, 01:56 PM
I will go over the Panny's rather confusing configuration menu to see if I have made some mistakes but as of today the XR55 is for sale.
Silver or Black?

Thanks,
David

rajacat
04-14-2006, 02:25 PM
Silver

curtis
04-14-2006, 03:25 PM
I am now really intrigued by the Panny....I really want to hear one with my speakers.

I hooked up an XR50 to a pair of Aperion 522D's for a friend and didn't notice anything "bad", but it is a less than optimal setup.

rajacat
04-15-2006, 12:20 PM
I am now really intrigued by the Panny....I really want to hear one with my speakers.

I hooked up an XR50 to a pair of Aperion 522D's for a friend and didn't notice anything "bad", but it is a less than optimal setup.

Curtis, if you really want to hear the XR55 with your speakers why don't you buy my Panny? The XR55 are relatively cheap and if you don't like it much, you could always use for a garage system or somewhere else. I already have the Pioneer which is satisfactory for now while I shop around for some sort of tube system. I'm open to full or partial trades, a musical subwoofer would fill one of my needs.

curtis
04-15-2006, 06:40 PM
Thanks....but I don't want to try it that badly. :)

JHZR2
06-01-2006, 10:00 AM
You know that many have said that it takes a while for the panasonic units to break in... How many hours have you used yours for???

Id suggest leaving it tuned to a classical or similar radio station, and try to let it play all day for a number of days, and see if it changes anything to your ears...

Maybe I missed it, but are you using analog or digital input from your squeezebox and whatnot? The issue is this... for real digital inputs to the panasonic, it surely is great... But if youre using RCA inputs, or miniplug inputs or whatnot, youre stuck doing an A/D conversion so that the signal is digital for the amp to use, then once its amplified, you need a D/A conversion too.

If youre doing this, I have no doubt that the sound quality isnt that great. My understanding from doing a lot of reading on the panasonic is that the A/D stage isnt all that great on these units... I could get a link, but its somewhere in the 104+ pages onf the XR55 thread over at avsforum... And Id believe it. Costs have to be sut somewhere.

Due to the fact that I do have my CD collection as MP3 of varying quality on my computer, and given the fact that I have a mac mini and a few laptops as my current computing systems (I have NICE monitors, but dont need the computing power anymore, so I buy small and portable for now at least), I am leaning towards an analog receiver, using either a USB sound card with RCAs, or if I get a receiver with burr brown D/A converters, then maybe Ill pipe digital out... but the key is to minimize the number of conversion steps. If I wanted a HT receiver mainly, with the ability to take digital input from a DVD, then great, if thats my only need, the XR would be fine, but otherwise, it seems to me that the old fashioned options still seem to have a fiar deal of relevance...

But Im just a newbie, what do I know...


JMH

bikeman
06-01-2006, 01:13 PM
You know that many have said that it takes a while for the panasonic units to break in... How many hours have you used yours for???

Well, I got mine when it was first introduced last year and the dang thing still dosen't sound any different than it did that first week. How much longer should I wait till it's broken in? :D

David

rajacat
06-01-2006, 05:12 PM
[QUOTE=bikeman]Well, I got mine when it was first introduced last year and the dang thing still dosen't sound any different than it did that first week. How much longer should I wait till it's broken in? :D

David

Break in procedure for Odyssey Amplifiers..

[/Qhttp://www.odysseyaudio.com/setup_tweak.htmlUOTE]

Raja

bikeman
06-01-2006, 06:01 PM
[QUOTE=rajacat][QUOTE=bikeman]Well, I got mine when it was first introduced last year and the dang thing still dosen't sound any different than it did that first week. How much longer should I wait till it's broken in? :D

David

Break in procedure for Odyssey Amplifiers..
[/Qhttp://www.odysseyaudio.com/setup_tweak.htmlUOTE]

Was this meant as a joke?

David

rajacat
06-01-2006, 06:23 PM
[QUOTE=rajacat][QUOTE=bikeman]Well, I got mine when it was first introduced last year and the dang thing still dosen't sound any different than it did that first week. How much longer should I wait till it's broken in? :D

David

Break in procedure for Odyssey Amplifiers..
[/Qhttp://www.odysseyaudio.com/setup_tweak.htmlUOTE]

Was this meant as a joke?

David
Ha! Thought you'd get a kick out of that. It's no joke Odyssey Audio has been in business for many years and has a very good reputation for building moderately high end amps. I think that the owner, Klaus, knows what he is talking about when it comes to his amps and I would suspect that his thousands of customers would agree.

Raja

Raja

bikeman
06-01-2006, 06:46 PM
[QUOTE=bikeman][QUOTE=rajacat]
Ha! Thought you'd get a kick out of that. It's no joke Odyssey Audio has been in business for many years and has a very good reputation for building moderately high end amps. I think that the owner, Klaus, knows what he is talking about when it comes to his amps and I would suspect that his thousands of customers would agree.
Yes, Klaus and his customers would certainly agree. I wouldn't dispute that for a moment.

David