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Kurt C.
08-15-2005, 11:58 AM
The experts tell me that it is impossible to compare different components in a meaningful manner or accurately compare two speakers without carefully matching volume levels using a sound pressure level (SPL) meter, yet few people have or use them.
Sound and Vision's "How We Compare Speakers" (http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=2&article_id=196&page_number=1&preview=)
More info on using SPL meter and why it is important (http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/avhardware/audiovideosetup2.php)
The cheap ones only cost $40. Almost everyone who reads this forum cares deeply about how their system sounds, so why do so few of us have or use SPL meters?

Quinn
08-15-2005, 01:48 PM
I believe most people here know about SPL meters, have them, and use them. I always level match when comparing speakers and usually do it with amps too.

Also, I think most know to recalibrate their system after changing any componets.

bikeman
08-15-2005, 02:14 PM
why do so few of us have or use SPL meters?

Why do so few people have multi thousand dollar TV's and nothing to calibrate them with? They're considered options and aren't seen as contributing day in, day out. They're in a drawer. How can something contribute that's in a drawer? The people who are passionate (obsessed?) about such things know the value but to a newbie or casual plug and play type individual, it's just not worth it.
It's the norm for ongoing contributors to the forums to have and use these tools but for the folks just stopping by with the new toys, it just hasn't registered (yet).
Be gentle on these people. They'll get the message if we present in a way they can appreciate.

David

P.S. I don't always follow my own advice but I should.

Lou-the-dog
08-15-2005, 04:55 PM
I'm with Quinn on this. I tend to think the folks on this forum are aware of the value of the indispensable SPL meter. Maybe time for a poll??

Randy

mattepntr
08-15-2005, 06:16 PM
I've got one! It's in a drawer right now, bit I got one:D

shane55
08-15-2005, 11:19 PM
I would think that this is an indispensable item for anyone who cares about the sound of/from their system.
I would also tend to agree that the vast majority of those who participate in this and other 'AV' fora have them (tucked away in a drawer too). And use them at the first curiosity or feeling that things might be amiss.

But that's just a guess. ;)

Cheers

shane

s2pdname
08-16-2005, 04:49 AM
I have one. I'll always use it when adding or changing components, and even sometimes when "The Boss" changes something in the room (furniture position, wall hangings, etc.) Is that obsesive?? Oh well, I kind of like my obsession. :D

Mag_Neato
08-16-2005, 06:15 AM
I've got mine! Just used it last night over a friends house to level match his HT setup. He felt his system sounded clearer after doing so.

It sits in my lowboy on a shelf next to my VCR most of the time.

Abhi
08-16-2005, 10:54 AM
The experts tell me that it is impossible to compare different components in a meaningful manner or accurately match the volume of two speakers without using a sound pressure level (SPL) meter, yet few people have or use them.


Very true! ....if you are comparing 2 components which are close in performance. I am no expert, but when the differences are very clear, distinct and obvious, you won't even think of using one. For example, when I replaced my old bookshelfs with Ascends, the immediate reaction was "WOW!". Without the meter, I could tell how clearer, crisper the sound was, and how it maintained it even at higher volumes. Sure, I did use the SPL meter to calibrate them. But didn't need it for comparison. No offense to anyone please, but afterall we don't use a lux meter to tell day from night!

BradJudy
08-16-2005, 11:18 AM
but afterall we don't use a lux meter to tell day from night!

Haha - I like that one.

I have, and use, an SPL meter. Of course, I also use the Sound and Vision disc to calibrate both sound and video. I also stray into the extreme by owning measurement equipment that's a set up from an SPL meter.

sygyzy
08-16-2005, 11:25 AM
I believe most people here know about SPL meters, have them, and use them. I always level match when comparing speakers and usually do it with amps too.

Also, I think most know to recalibrate their system after changing any componets.

I think this reply says it all. It's like asking "Food is important, why don't people eat it?" Answer: they do.

Kurt C.
08-16-2005, 12:21 PM
OK, so lots of people have SPL meters and use them. That's great.

I love hearing people describe the effect of adding or switching a component in their system. I'm a maniac about reminding everyone how critical volume level matching is because I want to be sure that I'll hear what they heard.

bikeman
08-16-2005, 12:49 PM
Analogies usually aren't appropo except on the surface but Ahbi's was funny. ;)

David

Quinn
08-16-2005, 01:50 PM
I'm a maniac about reminding everyone how critical volume level matching is because I want to be sure that I'll hear what they heard.

There is no guarantee of this as everyone hears differently. We aren't all exactly the same. The scientific endeavor gets gummed up with individuals' perceptions aren't constant. Even within an individual they aren't constant.

Kurt C.
08-16-2005, 02:13 PM
There is no guarantee of this as everyone hears differently. We aren't all exactly the same. The scientific endeavor gets gummed up with individuals' perceptions aren't constant. Even within an individual they aren't constant.Good point. Perhaps we should really be seeking the opposite. If someone we trust does a careful comparison and tells us that there are NOT audible differences between X and Y, we will be able to focus our time and money on things that really will result in audible improvements.

So here's a better question: What changes have you made to your system that didn't improve the sound?

bikeman
08-16-2005, 03:17 PM
So here's a better question: What changes have you made to your system that didn't improve the sound?

I got married. :rolleyes:

David

BGHD
08-16-2005, 04:15 PM
Almost everyone who reads this forum cares deeply about how their system sounds, so why do so few of us have or use SPL meters?
For me, I initially thought it was too techy/geeky and only for pros. Also, for some, something that you'll use so infrequently doesn't seem like a worthwhile purchase. But, since my HK has one built-in to the remote, I've come to realize the importance of it and that it's very easy to use. I'll never trust the settings on any auto-calibration feature again.

jermy4
08-16-2005, 08:10 PM
I have one and use it regularly. If for nothing else I like to see how loud the music or movie is when I am listening.

There are 3 things that are fairly inexpensive and are great investments in your A/V system:
SPL meter,
Video/Audio Calibration Disc (AVIA/DVE),
Room Treatments.

Why spend thousands of dollars on audio and video equipment and not get the most you can out of your setup?

shane55
08-16-2005, 11:46 PM
Exactamundo.
We use the SPL meter to get the most out of the equipment we own. Pretty simple, really. It's for calibration and equalization. It's not for telling us what we like or not, or what is best, but for setting things up to an 'agreed-upon' norm and balance. After that, you're on your own to tweak and adjust as you see fit. But with the meter (used properly, and all that) you are relatively assured that you've got a good foundation to build on, or move away from. :D

cheers

shane

Ps... oh yeah, I occaisionally check my listening levels too ;)

Kurt C.
08-17-2005, 06:10 AM
There are 3 things that are fairly inexpensive and are great investments in your A/V system: SPL meter, Video/Audio Calibration Disc (AVIA/DVE),
Room Treatments.

Why spend thousands of dollars on audio and video equipment and not get the most you can out of your setup?I agree completely. If anyone out there hasn't taken advantage of these 'big 3', you really should.

I'm in the process of building some fiberglass sound-absorbing panels for my listening room/HT. I finished the first one last night and placed at what I think is the worst reflection point between the speakers and my sofa. I wasn't expecting much of a difference because it was only one 2X4 foot panel. However, my subjective impression is that the improvement is amazing. Dialog sounds much clearer and is far easier to understand, even at low volume levels. I'll try to post some more objective data such as frequency responses -/+ the panels in the near future.

Kurt C.
08-17-2005, 08:33 AM
. No offense to anyone please, but afterall we don't use a lux meter to tell day from night!
Check this out. After several of us exchanged friendly jokes about day/night/eating/starving, I found the following quote in the minutes of the Boston Audio Society. The quote has been shortened by me, but nothing was added:

ABX Testing--A sample article from the archives of the B.A.S. Speaker From the December 1990 meeting, BASS Vol. 19 No. 3
Preliminary Discussion by E. Brad Meyer
(stuff deleted)

Tonight Meyer was going to focus his attention on the very end of the chain: the listener. Many things affect how a listener perceives the sound. Among them are hearing limits, experience, fatigue, mood (one's own and that of others), and pharmacological substances both medical and recreational. Ambient lighting affects mood and is thus a factor, as Meyer discovered early on in his audio pursuits. Lighting just the speakers and leaving the rest of the room dark makes the sound more vivid and dramatic. Meyer suggested that people try this, and also darkening the whole room. End of quote.:D

Funny huh! If interested, read the rest of the article here (http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing.htm).

Even if you haven't heard of the Boston Acoustic Society before, you'll recognize a member of the society mentioned at the end of the article--Dr. Poh Ser Hsu.

sensibull
08-17-2005, 12:31 PM
I wasn't expecting much of a difference because it was only one 2X4 foot panel. However, my subjective impression is that the improvement is amazing. Dialog sounds much clearer and is far easier to understand, even at low volume levels.

Here's a little tip along these same lines that I stumbled upon completely by accident... My living room has four sets of windows across from the HT setup, so until recently trying to see the TV during the day was murder, even with the curtains closed. I also knew those windows was affecting my sound, but didn't know how much until I bought some of those "black out" panels they sell at Bed, Bath, & Beyond. No idea what they're made of, but it's a very dense heavy material that *completely* blocks out light. You rig them behind your existing curtains and they're very inconspicuous. Anyway my system sounds a LOT better with those curtains closed, so its a great way to kill two birds with one stone.

Abhi
08-17-2005, 01:22 PM
I've been thinking of building bass trap panels using these:
http://www.bondedlogic.com/ultratouch.htm
I don't have enough tools and carpentry skills to make them. Any alternative ideas on building the frame? May be we should have a separate master thread/category for room treatments.

Kurt C.
08-17-2005, 02:12 PM
We've started a thread here (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=1194)

Sensible sound solutions sells cotton acoustic absorbing material similar to the stuff you linked to at very reasonable prices. He also sells pre-made panels that are quite inexpensive.

I was recently given an 8-pack of 2X4 foot, 1.5-inch thick fiberglass panels, so it was slightly cheaper for me to build them myself, but I don't think the finished ones look as good (or cost much less for me to build) than the 2-inch panels from Sensible sound.