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View Full Version : HTM-200s (x5) Calibration ?



JeffD2
06-27-2005, 06:17 PM
I've finally started calibration of my system. I realize room acoustics play an integral part in calibration. But no matter what, I get a large peak at 90hz.

SVS PB10 sub.
AVR set 80hz xover, small.
No filtering, or processing going on.
Bass/Treble set to 0.

It just seems odd to me with the AVR set to 80hz and the brick wall the 200s have at 80hz that the system would peak at 90hz. This is pretty much the case no matter what phase setting I use on the sub.

Will the 200s perform to full potential using a 60 or 100hz xover?
Yes, I've inquired on another forum, but figured I'd come to the source regarding the 200s. Graphs using two different phase settings below.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze88fph/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/chart-03.gif

curtis
06-27-2005, 06:43 PM
My understanding is that all rooms display a peak such as yours at one frequency or another.

I would try different crossover points and see how it sounds to you. I would start with 100hz.

BradJudy
06-27-2005, 06:45 PM
The 200s definitely don't hit a 'brick wall' at 80Hz. If you look at these graphs: http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/htm200/htm200meas.html you'll see that they roll off at about 12db/octave. Your receiver is probably rolling off the sub at 24db/octave, so there will be some overlap. That said, it could also be a room issue.

JeffD2
06-27-2005, 06:57 PM
Thanks guys,

Forgive my noobness. I'll try 100hz xover and see what happens. I tend to think in absolutes, when that is apparently not the case.

bikeman
06-27-2005, 07:31 PM
Thanks guys,

Forgive my noobness. I'll try 100hz xover and see what happens. I tend to think in absolutes, when that is apparently not the case.

Glad to see someone else on the board from upstate New York. We need to balance out all those "wrong coasters" who inhabit here. The WC's do know how to build excellent speakers at a reasonable price. ;)

David

shane55
06-27-2005, 10:52 PM
It's 'Left Coaster's' to you, pal... :D

shane

JeffD2
07-08-2005, 08:11 PM
Hey, thanks for the welcome.

Haven't forgotten about this thread, just had something serious to deal with. Apparently, dual posting is not a breach of decorum. I have some more experimenting with sub placement and measurements to do this weekend. I'll update and look for suggestions soon.

Thanks,

Jeff

shane55
07-09-2005, 01:06 AM
Serious OT here...
How's the wife? Sorry to hear about the difficulty.... though I read about the successful outcome. That's good to hear.

shane




Hey, thanks for the welcome.

Haven't forgotten about this thread, just had something serious to deal with. Apparently, dual posting is not a breach of decorum. I have some more experimenting with sub placement and measurements to do this weekend. I'll update and look for suggestions soon.

Thanks,

Jeff

JeffD2
07-09-2005, 12:32 PM
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze88fph/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/speaksubsys.gif

Here's the results of the day's work. Used pink noise from DVE (NOT the subtones) to calibrate to 75 dB. FWIW- DVE's sub tones resulted in absolutely silly readings. I used the AVR sub tone to adjust to 3 dB hot. Also rotated the sub 180°.

A peak at 45Hz, but boy, am I smooooooth from 50-90. I just listened to music for about an hour or so, and my system has never sounded better.

Of course, there's always room for improvement, like taming that 45 a bit and boosting the 100-110. Any suggestions?

Wifey is just fine, thank you. If you saw her, you simply would not believe she had brain surgery last weekend. One week later, 100% back to normal, except for no complaints about me cranking Ozzy! :cool:

BradJudy
07-09-2005, 01:22 PM
Change to a 100Hz crossover and that should clean up the dip.

shane55
07-09-2005, 02:27 PM
Change to a 100Hz crossover and that should clean up the dip.

I agree.. if you're not already there. Or... just for s&g's try 120hz.

Otherwise... looking pretty good. Of course the most important thing is how it sounds, and if you think it sounds good, not much else matters!

Great news re. the wife.
Cheers.

shane

JeffD2
07-11-2005, 07:16 PM
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze88fph/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/100hz2.gif

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze88fph/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/120hz2.gif

Here are the results for the 100 and 120Hz crossovers. That 45Hz seems tamed a bit (not sure why). I suppose It could just be a matter of inches with the spl meter.

I also did readings on the HTM-200s from one meter, and a single speaker from two feet- AVR set to large, sub off.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze88fph/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ascend-both.gif

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze88fph/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ascend-single.gif

I know that the many variables in rooms have an effect on readings but the readings on the HTM-200s give me pause.

Click my sig to see placement of the fronts, and thanks again for your advice.

Jorge59
07-12-2005, 09:48 AM
Hi Jeff,

Nice job calibrating your system. I'd be interested in knowing how do you feel about the 5 HTM-200 package. What receiver and player do you use? How big is the room? Do you play more music or movies? What kind of music (style, DVD, CD)? What speaker system did you have before? I'm about to buy an Ascend package and have considered a 5 HTM-200 set like yours (with STF-2 sub). Thanks.

JeffD2
07-12-2005, 12:02 PM
Hi Jorge,

Almost all your questions can be answered by clicking my signature.

You have to understand where I came from before I purchased the HTM-200s, a Pioneer HTIB. So of course I'm thrilled with them. I considered the usual recommended (at the time) 340 center and 340/170s for mains and either 200s or 170s for surrounds. BUT, I have a small living room, I did not want it converted to a speaker room, this was a major factor in my decision along with Ascend's impeccable reputation. I considered those "orb" speakers, didn't want to make that statement though ;) .

Please don't think I was never familiar with audiophile quality. My next audio project will be to ressurect my Dahlquist M907s and reignite my Carver 150w Magnetic Field Amplifier which has been in mothballs for longer than I care to remember- True old school power and sound, heck yeah!!

Your Ascends will sound great out of the box, the trick will be sub calibration.

Location, location, maybe rotation and calibration, right Shane?

Oh yeah, 80-20 music/movies.

shane55
07-12-2005, 01:46 PM
"Location, location, maybe rotation and calibration, right Shane?"

Right you are Jeff...:D
Seriously, your graphs have improved tremdously since you began this 'quest'.
Also, you now have a great record of what your components can do, and how they behave under certain circumstances.

Of course, as we have all said in the past... at one time or another, it's not just what the graphs look like, it's how it sounds. I hope it's not still "Horrible" ;) , and that the sound has improved with the charts.

Cheers

shane

JeffD2
07-12-2005, 05:06 PM
"Location, location, maybe rotation and calibration, right Shane?"

....... I hope it's not still "Horrible" ;) , and that the sound has improved with the charts.

Cheers

shane

Actually, the sound is quite good now. The "Horrible" comment was when I had a horrible graph to back it up. I gonna try a phase adjustement to smooth out the dip from the graph posted on 7-9-05 (Post #9) with those particular settings. I'll try at 80 and 100Hz xover and decide then. I'm a bit concerned about localizing the sub, but we'll see. THANK YOU for all your help here on that "other" forum. Couldn't do the final tweak tonight, but will advise if the phase changes anything in the graph.

Thanks to everyone here for their suggestions and sharing their knowledge.

Jeff

JeffD2
07-12-2005, 05:32 PM
Jorge59 ".......What kind of music (style, DVD, CD)? ......."

As I have an SVS PB10-ISD it may not be a just comparison (no knock, just a different sub), but I found that most contemporary music like hip-hop, rap, etc sounded awesome before I even attempted calibration. However, rock music in general just didn't have punch, whether it was new or old, CD stereo, PCM, DD2.0, DTS, or DD5.1. Movies have always sounded great as I tend to purchase "big sound" movies that shake the house. This was not due to anything from the Ascends, but from placement/calibration (or lack of) the sub itself.

davef
07-12-2005, 06:18 PM
I also did readings on the HTM-200s from one meter, and a single speaker from two feet- AVR set to large, sub off.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze88fph/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ascend-both.gif

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze88fph/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ascend-single.gif

Hi Jeff,

Congrats on the tweaking.. You are getting some nice responsive curves. Any real-world in-room response measurement of +/- 10dB is very respectable.

I wanted to make one comment from looking at your measurements...

Notice how smooth the response is when you measured a single HTM-200? This measurement is on spec for an HTM-200. Notice how you get a 10dB peak at 180Hz when you measured both of them and also a 10dB dip at 90Hz compared to the single speaker measurement? It is no coincidence that 180Hz is exactly one octave higher than 90Hz...

At 180Hz you are getting additional reinforcement while at 90Hz you are getting cancellation between both speakers... Without question, this is a sure sign of a large reflection and I suspect it is being caused by the large TV sitting directly between the speakers (or possibly the side walls)...

Try moving the speakers forward 2 feet and taking another measurement, you might also try changing the vertical height of the speakers. Also take a measurement of just a single speaker and sub... I bet you will see an even smoother transition between single speaker and sub (using an 80Hz crossover)...

If *aesthetics* will allow it, there is definitely room for even more improvements...

One last question, what are using to take these measurements?

Thanks

JeffD2
07-12-2005, 06:59 PM
Thanks for the input Dave,

I'm using the RS analog spl meter, C-weighted, slow, tripod mounted, me out of the way. I'm also using the Excel spreadsheet for meter compensation from the other forum posted in the subwoofer section.

Apparently you've seen my setup pics. Moving the speakers outward not really an option but higher than the TV is. I'll give it a shot and report back.

"If *aesthetics* will allow it" - C'mon Dave, we know what that really means ;) .

Oh well, more homework!

JeffD2
07-13-2005, 06:49 PM
I started this calibration quest on June 24th and consider myself finished after numerous sub placements (7) and rearranging furniture in my living room. Coincidentally the final sub placement gets highest mark on the WAF scale. Below is chart where I started and what I have finally decided on. This was done without spending any $ on hardware.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze88fph/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/final-comparison.gif

I took Dave's suggestions and did some new readings. I moved the speakers forward two feet away from the TV. I won't use this setup, but wanted to do justice to the HTM-200's. I believe I mistakenly measured about 75dB when it should have been about 85dB on the 200Hz frequency when the speakers where right along side of the TV. I've done many other tests and the 200Hz is always higher than the 160. Please ingnore ANYTHING below 80Hz as it just fill. Dave was right on.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze88fph/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ascendboth2ftout.gif

I tried raising the mains higher in the original postion but this did not accomplish anything positive in the higher frequecy dip region.

I am very happy with my overall sound now with the MINOR exception of movie dialogue which seems a little less than full (Yeah, I know 340C!). What I am wondering though, IF I decide to add an EQ to level the 90-125 region (if it will work at all), will that be detrimental to HTM-200s?

shane55
07-13-2005, 11:42 PM
Quite an exercise, Jeff. And quite an improvement.
I'm glad to see you have gotten the sound to a place where you are satisfied.
Congrats.

I don't know about how EQ'ing the 200's and boosting the region (90-125hz) will effect the speakers, detrimental or not... but I doubt it would have much of an effect on the vocal range or dialogue of movies. (Not even sure if you were asking about that)

While I have NO experience here, my concern would be that because the dip is caused by cancellations and not the speakers inability of producing those frequencies, EQ'ing would not actually be able to solve the problem. I would be hesitant to increase those frequencies because they would still cancel themselves out regardless of the increase. I am also assuming that the measurements were taken from one spot (the sweet spot?), if so, these frequencies (as are many of mine) might actually be much higher... or lower... at other points in your room, and any EQ at those points could cause the sound at those places to be seriously imbalanced.

Of course, that's just a guess... ;)

Either way... good luck there, and I hope someone can answer the question you specifically asked.

cheers!

shane

JeffD2
07-14-2005, 04:43 AM
.......EQ'ing would not actually be able to solve the problem. I would be hesitant to increase those frequencies because they would still cancel themselves out regardless of the increase......
cheers!

shane

I was thinking the same thing, but thought I'd throw it out there. Of course, I could try some other radical placement of the mains :eek: , but will leave well enough alone.

JeffD2
08-22-2005, 06:27 PM
Well, it's been a while. I've been experimenting with speaker and sub placement since my last "final" placement ;) . I have also been corresponding with Dave via email about optimizing my HTM200s and he has been more than gracious in sharing his expertise with me. Dave's suggestions have helped to resolve an approximate 10dB dip in the 100-125Hz region without the addition of any hardware or room treatments. He has also shared his insights into human hearing and how sound is perceived by the brain. Pretty amazing stuff.

If there is anyone who knows their product, it's Dave. The proof is here-

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze88fph/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/newold.gif

As you can see, the region in question has been smoothed out nicely. You can also see a null at 90Hz, but this is remedied by phase adjustment at the sub. I can adjust phase and have a null at 65Hz or cure the 65 and get one at 90 (we all have a null, dont we?).

My speaker placement may be unconventional, but then so is the room they are used in.

Dave has certainly helped me achieve the best out of less than ideal circustances. Amazing.

Thank you Dave.

shane55
08-22-2005, 10:49 PM
Well congrats on that, Jeff.:D
Yes, Dave IS the man.

So... what exactly did he recommend for you to do?

Cheers!

shane

JeffD2
08-23-2005, 10:53 AM
If anyone remembers, my speakers were at each side of the TV which had its own set of issues.

I saw in different thread Dave mention that mounting the HTMs closer to the ceiling should help out in 90-125Hz region. Well I did that, resulting in approx. 10dB gain at 100Hz, but 110 and 125 remained unchanged. Then Dave suggested I rotate the speakers so that the woofs are closest to wall and tweets are on the inside. WHAT!! ARE YOU INSANE MAN!!??? ;) I would have never tried this on my own. I would've thought a waste of time, nobody does that!

Obvously the results speak for themselves. I really don't notice any deficits by having the tweets on the inside. By having about 10 feet between the mains instead of 4½ the soundstage is much broader.

Unconventional advice for unconventional placement resulted in big performance boost. 3x 10dB dip now gone!

Quinn
08-23-2005, 11:24 AM
Then Dave suggested I rotate the speakers so that the woofs are closest to wall and tweets are on the inside. WHAT!! ARE YOU INSANE MAN!!??? ;) I would have never tried this on my own. I would've thought a waste of time, nobody does that!!

That is how I set up my 200s. But I was thinking tweeter reflection off wall was bad not woofer nearer to wall reinforces bass.

JeffD2
08-23-2005, 12:23 PM
I would imagine its the same principal as with subwoofers, closer to a wall or in a corner yields more bass.

davef
08-23-2005, 05:05 PM
Hi Jeff,

Thanks!!! I am happy that I was able to assist you in obtaining a smoother response in your somewhat *acoustically handicapped* room.

It was challenging for me as well.