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View Full Version : anyone use an EQ with their Ascends?



Eddie
06-08-2005, 11:17 AM
I was thinking of getting either an AudioSource EQ200 ($113 shipped, Amazon.com) or some used EQ off eBay (Technics SH-GE70, ADC, BSR) and using it *only* for bad recordings since my 340s are so mercilessly revealing.

Mainly I want to use it to reduce the treble on some of my old classic rock CDs which sound thin and shrill on the 340s. And to cut down on those horrible brushed cymbals in the background of Norah Jones' "Come Away With Me" which make the song basically unlistenable at high volumes.

The rest of the time I plan on having the EQ flat or with defeat on.

Does anyone have any experience with this? Any particular brands/models of EQs that you might recommend?

Lee Bailey
06-08-2005, 01:24 PM
Eddie, before spending any money on an EQ, you need to see about acoustic treatment of your room.

Abhi
06-08-2005, 06:54 PM
Eddie, before spending any money on an EQ, you need to see about acoustic treatment of your room.
I second Lee. Room is the last and one of the most important components of the HT setup. It introduces many modifications to the original signal. There could be huge ripples in spectrum spanning more than 2 octaves which are difficult to equalize using an EQ. Moreover, the time delays introduced by the reflected waves CANNOT be eliminated by an EQ. EQ is not an alternative to room treatment. EQ comes AFTER room treatment. Even if you could equalize the response curve as flat as possible, the clarity and dynamics won't improve much (because of time delays) if you don't treat your room. I'm considering DIYing a few broadband absorber panels. It might cost somewhere around $150 for say, 8 panels. I think it's worth it!

Eddie
06-08-2005, 07:07 PM
Room treatments I'm afraid would be out of the question for WAF reasons, the wife likes a real spare minimalist look and had to be arduously persuaded to accept all the black boxes I've accumulated on the AV wall --- sub, 3 fronts, receiver, cdp, dvdp, vcr, cassette deck, 2-channel separates ... any further "decorations" on my part could prove fatal! :D

Plus it's a rented house so don't want to be nailing too many things to the walls, etc.

So no EQ-users out there?

Lou-the-dog
06-08-2005, 07:17 PM
I would really like to experiment with some treatments BUT, like Eddie, I don't think it would go over very well with the "Boss". A tapestry here or there might work but definitely nothing glued to the ceilings. A dedicated room would be nice.

Randy

Lee Bailey
06-09-2005, 07:00 AM
It could also be as simple as where the speakers are currently placed. An EQ will not be able to account for room acoustics at all. I'm talking mainly about reflections here. Furniture in the right places can also help. If you can show your wife what a difference the treatments make, they can come up with a decorative solution.

Here's a thread about what one of the members did with their setup:

Pioneer 1014 and Ascends (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=815)

Eddie
06-09-2005, 04:14 PM
Lee,

OK, please look at this diagram of my LR and tell me if there's any hope whatsoever. Sorry it's fuzzy, had to resize it or it wouldn't upload.

The front mains and sub are toed in towards the center of the futon, BTW.

I know the sub belongs in the left corner but I haven't figured out how to run the cable under the carpet yet so that's why it's floating in the middle of the room. It's front-firing so I was hoping the toeing in would help a little.

Have already found the reflection points on the side walls but since they're on the French doors, no dice for any tapestries and heavy drapes are out for WAF reasons. Hopefully because the doors are so far from the listening position (10 & 15 feet) maybe I shouldn't worry too much about it?

With my recent purchase of NAD separates my 340s are now filling up the room with sound very nicely, glad to say. Still not getting a whole lot of bass from my sub, but that may be in large part due to the fact that it's a pretty lousy one to begin with (JBL e150)!

[IMG]

Abhi
06-09-2005, 04:24 PM
It could also be as simple as where the speakers are currently placed. An EQ will not be able to account for room acoustics at all. I'm talking mainly about reflections here. Furniture in the right places can also help. If you can show your wife what a difference the treatments make, they can come up with a decorative solution.

Here's a thread about what one of the members did with their setup:

Pioneer 1014 and Ascends (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=815)
Lee is the one who pointed me in this direction. Thanks again, Lee!

Lee Bailey
06-10-2005, 06:59 AM
Eddie, for now, the sub should probably be placed between your LF speaker and Center channel, there currently is not enough wall behind it. The corner I would think you'd want it in would be where the bookshelf is at, though that is quite a long run of shielded cable. Believe it or not, that coffee table is a reflection point as well. Try covering it with a blanket or something soft and see if that changes the sound any. As far away as the side walls look, I would not think secondary reflections would be a problem, though having your listening position up against a wall can be an issue, since all sound hitting the rear wall is being immediately reflected back at your head. This would mean putting up some sort of material behind you. The other choice of course would be to reverse where the couch and entertainment are. This would give you the corner for the sub, as well as a lot less rear wall reflection. I take it that this is a carpeted floor? If it is bare, you'll need to treat the reflection points on the floor.

Eddie
06-10-2005, 08:28 AM
Eddie, for now, the sub should probably be placed between your LF speaker and Center channel, there currently is not enough wall behind it. The corner I would think you'd want it in would be where the bookshelf is at, though that is quite a long run of shielded cable. Believe it or not, that coffee table is a reflection point as well. Try covering it with a blanket or something soft and see if that changes the sound any. As far away as the side walls look, I would not think secondary reflections would be a problem, though having your listening position up against a wall can be an issue, since all sound hitting the rear wall is being immediately reflected back at your head. This would mean putting up some sort of material behind you. The other choice of course would be to reverse where the couch and entertainment are. This would give you the corner for the sub, as well as a lot less rear wall reflection. I take it that this is a carpeted floor? If it is bare, you'll need to treat the reflection points on the floor.

Well the wife won't hear of flipping the couch and entertainment center, and putting the sub BETWEEN the LF and CC isn't possible because the EC is one of these low-risers:

http://www.ikea.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10101&storeId=12&productId=11149&langId=-1&parentCats=10104*10174

So the only way would be to put the sub ON the low-riser but since I doubt that it's magnetically shielded this would screw up my TV. Wife really likes the low-riser too, so no chance of getting a different a/v cabinet...would have to wait until we ever get a wall-mounted LCD/DLP/plasma TV and even then I'd expect the bass to decrease if elevated 18" off the ground wouldn't it?

Yes, the floor is carpeted. The coffee table is metal and glass so you're right, it is a reflection point too though I have the mains elevated 31" off the ground on stands so there's a direct line to my ears in the listening position.

Abhi
06-10-2005, 09:38 AM
Eddie,
Looking at the diagram, I think if you swap the front-speakers/sub and the couch, you'll be rewarded with a better bass and less front wall reflections. Your sub will find a new location near one of the wall corners. Try it. Later you can deal with the side wall reflections. What kind of ceiling do you have? Is it straight or sloping?

Lee Bailey
06-10-2005, 09:46 AM
Yes, the floor is carpeted. The coffee table is metal and glass so you're right, it is a reflection point too though I have the mains elevated 31" off the ground on stands so there's a direct line to my ears in the listening position.

There may be a direct line to your ears, but the high frequencies don't just shoot straight ahead. (which is why we're talking about this).

Another thing you may consider would be an IB (infinite baffle) subwoofer. If this is your house, these are generally installed in the attic, and would require some cutting in your ceiling, which then gets concealed with a color matched grille. The people that have built these just rave about their performance.

There are also several manufacturers of in-wall subs that you may want to look at.

Of course, the cheapest route with the current sub will be to get it into a corner. Raising it off the floor won't help with the bass, that's for sure.

Eddie
06-10-2005, 10:03 AM
Eddie,
Looking at the diagram, I think if you swap the front-speakers/sub and the couch, you'll be rewarded with a better bass and less front wall reflections. Your sub will find a new location near one of the wall corners. Try it. Later you can deal with the side wall reflections. What kind of ceiling do you have? Is it straight or sloping?

I'm afraid that swapping or flipping locations is a WAF impossibility...I can understand better bass due to the sub going in the corner, but how/why would there be any "less front wall reflections?"

The ceiling is sloped downwards from both sides of the dashed red line you see running across the room in the diagram.

Eddie
06-10-2005, 10:09 AM
Another thing you may consider would be an IB (infinite baffle) subwoofer. If this is your house, these are generally installed in the attic, and would require some cutting in your ceiling, which then gets concealed with a color matched grille. The people that have built these just rave about their performance.

Of course, the cheapest route with the current sub will be to get it into a corner. Raising it off the floor won't help with the bass, that's for sure.

Yep unfortunately there is no attic because the ceiling goes all the way up to the roof...thermal nightmare! IB or in-wall sub is out since it's a rental property (have considered buying it though).

Do you have any tips as to how to run cable underneath the carpet? I was thinking of using some sort of flat metal tube maybe. The actual breach is only about 5 feet since I'd go from the corner where the plant is alongside the right (from perspective of couch) hand wall. Tried to push a coax cable across but it kept getting stuck in the carpet nails/staples.

Otherwise if I keep the sub in its present location I may have to go with the biggest sub I can afford, Dr. Hsu recommended the STF-3.

Lee Bailey
06-10-2005, 10:45 AM
Yep unfortunately there is no attic because the ceiling goes all the way up to the roof...thermal nightmare! IB or in-wall sub is out since it's a rental property (have considered buying it though).

Do you have any tips as to how to run cable underneath the carpet? I was thinking of using some sort of flat metal tube maybe. The actual breach is only about 5 feet since I'd go from the corner where the plant is alongside the right (from perspective of couch) hand wall. Tried to push a coax cable across but it kept getting stuck in the carpet nails/staples.

Otherwise if I keep the sub in its present location I may have to go with the biggest sub I can afford, Dr. Hsu recommended the STF-3.

If you can get one, use a wire fishing reel(don't know its real name), the type that has a loop on the end, and usually rolls up into a hand crank unit. You should be able to find one at a Lowes or Home Depot. Run it under the carpet, and attach the cable to it, and drag the cable. Just use electrical tape to secure the cable to the loop. As long as you stay along the edge of the carpet by the tack strips, it shouldn't get much foot traffic damage. Be sure that it is a shielded cable though. How many feet is it from the EC to the corner?

As for the STF-3, get one of those anyways! :D

Abhi
06-10-2005, 10:46 AM
I'm afraid that swapping or flipping locations is a WAF impossibility...I can understand better bass due to the sub going in the corner, but how/why would there be any "less front wall reflections?"

The ceiling is sloped downwards from both sides of the dashed red line you see running across the room in the diagram.

There are 4 strong reasons why swapping would give you better results:
1. Freqs upto 400Hz are radiated in all the directions (spherically) and above 400Hz would mostly radiate in the front direction. If you swap the positions, the higher frequencies passing through the open area on both sides of the listeing position would not be reflected. This open area is like a perfect absorber!

2. Due to the sloping ceiling, you would reduce tremendous amount of ceiling reflections if you could keep the front speakers near the wall with shorter height. I did it in my room and the results were great! With the current setup, you must be listening to your "ceiling" a lot, may be more than your speakers (depending on the height of the shorter wall)! With swapping the locations, most of the ceiling reflections would be directed to the rear wall instead of the listener's head!

3. Subwoofer would get a good boost.

4. The tri-wall corner (which is evil!) at the listening poisition would not exist due to the open areas on both sides.

With just this change, you may not even need to treat the side wall reflections, 'cause the problems with your current speaker location outweigh the problems with the side wall reflections.

As far as WAF is concerned, you can start with like, "We'll be able to watch the TV while cooking and eating!" ;-)

s2pdname
06-10-2005, 11:31 AM
If you can get one, use a wire fishing reel(don't know its real name), the type that has a loop on the end, and usually rolls up into a hand crank unit.


"Fish Tape" I had to use one of these when running speaker wire through my walls. They are available at Lowe's, Menards, Home Depot, or online through Parts Express.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=360-420

mattepntr
06-10-2005, 05:59 PM
Speaking of running speaker wire through the walls....
who's done it, and how hard is it? I was learning to live
with the notion of cable runways to hide everything, as I
don't have an attic, basement, or inwall wiring in the house.
My initial thought was that running wire through the wall would
be a remodeling nightmare beyond comprehension, but now
I'm not so sure.

Anecdotes? For or against?

Thanks,
Rick

jerryg
06-10-2005, 06:13 PM
I was thinking of getting either an AudioSource EQ200 ($113 shipped, Amazon.com) or some used EQ off eBay (Technics SH-GE70, ADC, BSR) and using it *only* for bad recordings since my 340s are so mercilessly revealing.

Mainly I want to use it to reduce the treble on some of my old classic rock CDs which sound thin and shrill on the 340s. And to cut down on those horrible brushed cymbals in the background of Norah Jones' "Come Away With Me" which make the song basically unlistenable at high volumes.

The rest of the time I plan on having the EQ flat or with defeat on.

Does anyone have any experience with this? Any particular brands/models of EQs that you might recommend?

I would recommend AudioControl EQ's over any of the brands above. EQ's are their specialty; made in USA.

I'm particularly fond of the Octave model which is no longer made, but can often be picked up used for a song on eBay. I own four Octaves and one TenPlus.

As others have mentioned, EQ cannot correct really major problems. But, I've rarely (actually never) encountered a system that couldn't be tweaked for the better with EQ, but that's just my opinion.

Eddie
06-11-2005, 12:04 AM
OK so here's the sad update: went to Home Depot and bought some Fish Tape, ran a coax under my carpet and along the left wall so I could finally put the sub in the corner next to the bookcase. What a huge pain in the butt, took me half an hour just to get the damn wire through the carpet...and left a big hump in the middle of the walkway, probably the Fish Tape and/or cable pushed up some carpet pad!

And I'll be damned but whaddaya know, I finally connect the sub in the new location...and got whacked with MASSIVE ground loop interference! The hum reduced the output on my mains to maybe 10%---for a few terrifying moments I was thinking I had somehow shorted out the amp or it had died on me mysteriously at some point during the day when I was out or maybe my wife had sabotaged the amp in revenge...lol! Finally disconnected the subwoofer cable from the pre-amp and voila it was back to normal.

I may have to take this as a firm message from the gods that the damn sub ain't goin' nowhere! And have no idea how to get rid of that blasted hump in the carpet...ARRRGH!!!

Looks like I'll just have to get some massive sub like the STF-3 then, sigh.

Or plot on how to convince my wife to let me flip the furniture.

In any case I have sworn never to run wiring under the carpet again, so help me bejesus.

Eddie
06-11-2005, 12:08 AM
thanks Jerry,

I'll look into the AudioControl EQs.

> As others have mentioned, EQ cannot correct really major problems.

After tonight I am wondering if maybe I should just be happy for what I have right now, in the room position I have it in right now.

I mean, one year ago my HT system consisted of a Sony minisystem and a pair of tiny Mordaunt Short bookshelves in the same cavernous space...

shane55
06-11-2005, 12:15 AM
Eddie...
Oh man, I feel for you! Sorry to hear about the bump in the carpet! Ugh. :(

On the other hand, perhaps this is the sign from the audio-gods telling you that you need to flip the room in order to hide it.;)

E-d-d-i-e...f-l-i-p-t-h-e-r-o-o-m-!

BTW, as a group, I'm sure we can help convince your wife that... ah, no, wait a minute, bad idea.:D

Cheers

shane

Eddie
06-11-2005, 03:37 PM
> On the other hand, perhaps this is the sign from the audio-gods telling you that you need to flip the room in order to hide it.

no way of hiding it even with a flip, since it's in the middle of the walkway...sigh.

Looks like I may have to pay some Home Depot person to come out and repair the hump. :(

leonp
06-11-2005, 05:56 PM
Thanks for the heads-up about running wire under the carpet. I was considering this to eliminate a 40-50 ft. run of wire to a surround speaker. I could also run it up over the ceiling, but I don't like the way that looks, even inside a cable runner or something like that.

Funny note by the way (to me at least, I'm sure not to you!)

leon

Jorge59
06-11-2005, 08:45 PM
Hi Eddie

Relax, you're not alone. Upon seeing your concerns about the hiss on the "Come Away with Me", I put this CD on my system and also found that weird brushes/cymbals playing continuously in the song. I guess it is the original recording. The rest of the instruments and voice look well, but that noise is really boring. As you know, my system is no high end: Yammy RXV-520 and Polk small satellites. So, it is not a problem of the speakers sensitivity. I turned the receiver treble button down and the hiss was well reduced, so I understood why you wanted the EQ. Nevertheless, maybe just one or another strange recording won't justify adding an EQ to your system.