Pairing Receiver w/ Ascend CBM170 System [Archive]

johnnylongwood

05-31-2005, 06:16 PM

This is my first HT system, so any help would be appreciated. I have decided to go with the CBM 170's for front and surround and the CMT 340 center. In addition, I will be placing a pair of CBM 170's in built in bookshelves in our LR (adjacent to our den) and a pair of Niles OS 25's out on my deck (also adjacent to our den). For a sub, I will make use of an existing Klipsch KSW-12 (for the time being).

As I've never had a HT system, I'm going to guess that we will use the receiver 50% for music and 50% for TV/Movies. The Den is approximately 9'x12' with a sloped ceiling from 7' to 10' high.

In terms of sources, I plan to get the Denon 2910 universal disc player and I have a Scientific Atlanta HD DVR cable box.

I would be curious to for any feedback from people who have listened to the above ascend speakers with any of the following receivers:

HK 435
Sony DA3000ES
Denon 2805

Both the HK and Denon have the room EQ function, where the Sony does not. The Sony is a digital amp, so the power rating may not be apples to apples with the others. All run about ~$600, which is about the price range that I am considering. All have the multi-zone capability, which I intend to use for the LR and Deck speakers. None of the recievers have HDMI connections, but I don't know of many recievers that do for this price.

Any comments/suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks - Johnny

Nicholas Mosher

05-31-2005, 06:26 PM

My vote is for the Denon. I heard the 3805. Not sure how it compares to the 2805 though. I think Denon makes pretty decent stuff.

Alot of people recommend HK for the Ascends though, so I would also consider them.

I guess my only advice is not to buy the Sony when you have products from companies such as Denon and HK...

Good Luck! :o ;)

jojo

05-31-2005, 06:29 PM

Whats going on james. well i have the system 2323 minus one pair of 170 they are still in customs. any way i have them paired with h/k 335 and this recieve is great i upgraded from denon 1803 and the h/k sounds much better to me and they also tamed most of the brightness of my old klipsch sb1.1s that are surround duty right now. i know the 435 has the room eq. the 335 doesnt have the full function room eq like the 435. my listen room is 12x14x8 which opens to a smaller pc area about 10x8 and as i type this im enjoying the music in the pc area. i dont think you would be dissapointed in either. but imo i would recommend the h/k line

johnnylongwood

05-31-2005, 06:46 PM

thanks guys. the HK and Denon are on my short list. normally, i would steer well clear of Sony, but i must confess the idea of a digital reciever intrigues me.

the reviews are spotty though people either like it or hate it. those that like it swear that using the "small speaker" setting and digital inputs sounds incredible. those that dislike it, say it sounds too bright. also, it presents a problem for 4 ohm speakers.

a criticism of the denon is that it can also be bright. is there any rule of thumb for burn in times for ss amps?

thx-J

Lee Bailey

05-31-2005, 07:26 PM

The Sony ES series are very good performers. I still have my DA1ES, though I replaced it with a Denon 3803. The DA1ES was the entry level of the ES line. It offered some adjustments that the Denon does not, which surprised me, since the Denon retailed for twice the price. The one feature I miss, was the ability to configure different crossover points for each speaker. The Denon has a feature that I did want, and that was the ability to up-convert all video inputs to component-out. So, I feed all my video signals, even my DVD player component ones, into the reciever, and only have to feed my TV with one set of cables.

As for the auto-EQ feature, be sure to go back and check that it did not set your speakers to LARGE, when you know they are supposed to be set to SMALL.

jojo

05-31-2005, 08:58 PM

metalaaron

05-31-2005, 09:09 PM

i am quite happy with my denon 3805 purchase. their x805 series is very good. i remember way back when i was just a young tyke. my grandfather always had denon gear and it was constantly on my dream list as i grew up. denon was the best because that's what he had. ;) i always thought, when i grow up, i want to have a stereo setup with what he had. well, i finally got the denon components. :)

many, many people adore their dvd players.

shane55

05-31-2005, 09:40 PM

No regrets with my Denon 3805 either. It takes care of the 340's and 170's just fine. :D

Some really great DAC's in this unit. I have the Denon 3300 as well, and the 3805 just sounds better.

shane

johnnylongwood

06-01-2005, 05:15 AM

thanks guys for your help.

Lee you got me thinking, what freq do you set the crossover for your sub. It's been a while since I've played around with mine, I recall someone telling me that it should be set 2 octives above the lowest range of the speakers.

I've seen lots of glowing praise for the Denon 3805, which is a bit more than I was looking to spend. Any thoughts about going with a refurb from Ecost.com? They periodically have 3805's for just over $700 shipped.

cheers - J

Lee Bailey

06-01-2005, 06:57 AM

I use 80Hz for my system. Though the recommendation is to go 1 octave above the low end response of your system. (where it's -3db frequency is)

There's nothing wrong with a refurb unit, as long as it has a warranty, and the dealer is listed at Denon as an authorized one.

Nicholas Mosher

06-01-2005, 08:08 AM

If you can get a refurbed 3805 with a warranty I'd spring for it. :)

curtis

06-01-2005, 08:33 AM

If you can get a refurbed 3805 with a warranty I'd spring for it. :)
Nicholas...you are very generous! :D

Mag_Neato

06-01-2005, 08:47 AM

Nicholas......is that offer open to anyone?!! :D

Nicholas Mosher

06-01-2005, 08:57 AM

LOL! Oops... I guess that came out wrong... :o

I'm not that generous... :D

metalaaron

06-01-2005, 09:53 AM

(just remember the 3805 does not come with a microphone and many people are unhappy with the remote - including myself)

http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?stk_code=piovsx54tx&store=&catid=4118

^ that's such an awesome receiver.

johnnylongwood

06-01-2005, 12:11 PM

nicholas, i'll send you my address if the offer is still open... ;)

seems weak that the 3805 doesn't include the microphone, while the 2085 does?!??!

any suggestions for places to look for refurbs???

bikeman

06-01-2005, 02:26 PM

any suggestions for places to look for refurbs???

Warranty is 90 days. I'm comfortable with that but not everyone is.

http://www.usa.denon.com/dealers/dealers.asp?l=1#REFURB

David

shane55

06-01-2005, 10:56 PM

[QUOTE=metalaaron](just remember the 3805 does not come with a microphone and many people are unhappy with the remote - including myself)
QUOTE]

Yes... the two downsides to this great receiver. I am currently on remote #2 as the first one died. It makes me glad that I purchased an extended warrantee. ;)

Also... get some AAA's and a recharger. This remote eats batteries too.

shane

metalaaron

06-02-2005, 08:30 AM

i thought about doing rechargables. OR, i could get one of the logitech Harmony controllers that many rave about. the xbox360 will have media center capabilities and i'm curious to find out how the Harmony 680 will (or won't) integrate with that. it wouldn't surprise me if it did not. afterall, M$ required the purchase of a dvd remote pack in order for users to play DVDs on the original xbox.

johnny,
your budget is around 600? also, don't forget that ascend offers special pricing on their HK electronics when you purchase ascend products. i would inquire about the 335.

MrTomasulo

06-02-2005, 09:50 AM

also, don't forget that ascend offers special pricing on their HK electronics when you purchase ascend products. i would inquire about the 335.

Are these prices lower than the listed price on the website?

johnnylongwood

06-02-2005, 01:19 PM

yes there is a "package" discount that reduces the prices listed on the website provided you buy the speakers and receiver together. to be honest you can find better prices elsewhere. onecall's prices (incl shipping) look better to me; however, i did not ask David whether or not he'd be willing to price match.

i've read the auto setup and EQ on the 435 is better than the 335, so it's between the HK 435 and Denon 2805 for me at this point...

the recommendations for the Denon 3805 has me seriously thinking about delaying my purchase of the Denon 2910 universal disk player. there are refurbs available for $830+shipping with a 1 year warranty.

wish i could a/b these receivers somehow. i'm going to have a look over the weekend to see what the local stores carry. thanks for the rechargeable battery tip.

shane55

06-02-2005, 01:51 PM

One of my other reasons for getting the Denon 3805 was the Denon-Link feature. This is a single cable solution for sending digital SACD (now that it's been released by Sony), DVD-A, DTS, DD, etc. signals from a DL-3 equiped DVD player (DVD-3910) to the receiver. The 3910 will be the unit I wind up getting because I will then be able to one-cable it (audio) instead of 7 (6-for the surround, and 1 for the bitstream - toslink). Then the DAC's in the receiver will be employed on all digital audio from this one input.

With HD-DVD (or whatever they'll end up with) on the horizon, I want to get a DVD player that will carry me to the point at which these become viable (read: affordable).

The 2910 does not have the Denon-link.

At places like Dakmart and OnSale.com (as listed on the Denon site), these can be had for much less than MSRP, and they carry a relatively good mfg. warrantee. These should be basically as good as new. I can not afford to pay for a new 3910 at MSRP... outrageous.

Not that this (the Denon-Link) is important to you, but it was to me in my decision making process... for whatever that is worth. ;)

johnnylongwood

06-02-2005, 02:33 PM

i saw the blurb on denon link on their website, but didn't really spend any time thinking about it.

i'm an HT newbie, so bear with me here. how is that different from taking the coax/optical digital out directly into the receiver? passing a digital signal won't allow the dac's in the receiver to do the conversion to surround sound (5/7ch)?

yikes, i was trying to do this on the cheap. you guys are killing me!!! ;)

shane55

06-02-2005, 10:57 PM

In essence it is not different from the optical/coax signal, but it (D-link) will now transmit everything. So with the 3910 you would only need one audio cable, and all digital transmission to take advantage of the DAC's in the receiver. And yes, it does all necessary conversions as well as bass management.

Toslink-optical, coax digital will send a 'pure' bitstream digital signal signal to your receiver, but only for DTS, DD, Stereo... not SACD or DVD-A. this is *now* the advantage to the D-link. It used to only transmit the DVD-A, but Sony (as you read) has allowed transmission of the SACD signal so it will now pass every digital signal that the laser picks up.

Now... should that matter to you? I have one SACD that I have never heard in surround (Layla). Should I spend the extra so that I can spend even more on DVD-A's and SACD's? I don't know. I haven't gotten there yet. I have mixed feelings about this whole thing, to be honest. Many say that the audiophile surround phase is dying a fast death. Could be. As I said, I'm a bit conflicted about the whole thing and might just opt for the Panny s77 or something else inexpensive to last me 'till the HD-disc comes along.

Obviously D-link was what I was considering when I got the 3805, and I do not regret the purchase, nor will I even if I don't get the 3910. It's a great receiver.... well... except for the remote ;)

shane

dakulis

06-03-2005, 11:06 PM

bikeman

06-04-2005, 03:32 AM

Just a heads up, I just had a Denon 2805 delivered today. It's a "B" stock, refurbished by Denon that I won in an auction. It's on eBay with seller name "dakulis", at a great starting price. It's the exact same product being sold by Dakmart and others, but I got it from a wholesaler. Anyway, if you're leaning towards Denon, you can probably pick it up "relatively cheap," less than $600, that's for sure. In fact, if you're real interested, let me know before the auction ends.

According to Denon, there's no warranty with the unit you've purchased. You get a manufacturer's warranty with the unit purchased from Dakmart and others. How much the warranty is worth is up to the purchaser but it definitely adds value.

http://www.usa.denon.com/dealers/dealers.asp?l=1#ETAIL

David

johnnylongwood

06-06-2005, 12:01 PM

Thanks to all that have helped me with my decision. I finally took the plunge today :(

After having a look at the HK and Denon lines over the weekend. I went with a 3805 refurb unit from Dakmart w/ 1 year warranty. I'm sure I couldn't go wrong either way, but I preferred the Denon 3805 over the HK 635 (couldn't find a store with a 435 in stock). I ordered 3 pair of CBM 170's a CMT 340 center and a pair of Niles OS25's for my out on my deck. The DVD upgrade will have to wait for me to save up a few more bucks. I'm still inclined to go with the 2910, just b/c the 3910 is so much more expensive and before too long I know I'll get the bug to buy an HD-DVD player. Maybe by that time the price will have come down a bit more...

Which setup disc would you recommend the Avia or the Digital Video Essentials? I've already got the basic sound and vision disc, so I was leaning towards the DVE disc as it sounds pretty comprehensive. Just curious which one people like/dislike.

Again, I appreciate all the help/suggestions. I can hardly wait, this stuff can't show up fast enough... :)

jojo

06-06-2005, 12:14 PM

Congradulations on your new setup. you will like them if you havent heard these speakers yet. i also had a uestion on which setup to buy. avia, dve, and lee bailey and some others also suggested soundandvisions setup disk. well because i was impatient for mail orders, i found dve here for $30. dont know how much they cost in usa, but avia delieved would cost me $90 dont know how much it would have been for s&v's. the dve is pretty cool. its great for those who just pluged into ht. i havent played with the avia but from what ive heard its for those who are really into configurations i guess for the advance crowd. im still toddler in ht.

shane55

06-06-2005, 03:26 PM

Yikes... indeed.
Congrats on the new system. You should love it!
The 3805 is a great receiver that gives the Ascends what they need.

Let us know how it all goes for you!

shane

FibreKid

06-06-2005, 04:22 PM

:cool: Congrats on your AVR purchase. Before you toss the 3910 for a 2910, remember the cost of 6 cables 2910->3805 vs 1 denon link for the 3910 ->3805. The denon link cable will come with the DVD player. According to Denon, SACD has been approved and an update for the DVD player will be available shortly. I myself am looking forward to removing a few cables shortly my my setup.

johnnylongwood

06-07-2005, 06:16 AM

hadn't thought of it that way. thanks. it's a good point worth considering.

any suggestions for speaker stands? apparently the omnimount 300 a/h stands have been discontinued. i'm going to see if i can't find someplace that has them in stock. anybody have any experience with the omnimount 400 a/h stands?

Nicholas Mosher

06-07-2005, 06:43 AM

A 3805, 2910, 6x170's, and a 340c.
Sounds like a winning combination to me!

I purchased a 2900 (3910 predecessor) on clearence 40% off (new) for $600, but with HD-DVD/Blu-Ray around the corner, $1500 for the 3910 is a little steep in my book. If you could find a used one under a grand I would definetly go for it though. Otherwise my vote would be for the 2910. Actually, if you don't need DVI/HDMI video outputs, a used 2900 would give you better performance than the 2910 for less money.

Good Luck!
EDIT: Look at the StudioTech SP series of stands.

shane55

06-07-2005, 10:39 AM

The Denon website has links to authorized (very important!) refurbished - B-stock dealers, of which Dakmart is one. I have seen the 3910 for much less than $800 at at least 2 dealers listed there. Dakmart is a bit over $800... last time I checked. These also come with a year warranty, as you know.

Go to the AVS forum and look at the links specific to the 3910 and 2910 for a wealth of knowledge about these two units. Ask questions there about them.

good luck!

shane

dakulis

06-08-2005, 12:56 PM

Hey, good luck with the new system. Let us know how it sounds. I'm still considering the same fronts, center and rears for my 3803. Dave.

johnnylongwood

06-09-2005, 07:25 AM

will do.

based on the suggestion fron Nicholas, I picked up the 30" Studio Tech SP stands. They look pretty sturdy, especially after they've been filled with sand. Also the speaker cable clips on the back are a nice touch.

I ordered the DVE disc. Boxes have started arriving, but I won't have the speakers or receiver until next week according to the UPS site.

Anybody have any experience using the multi zone features on this receiver? I'm specifically wondering about the infrared sensors and relays. Do you have to go with the Denon units (RC-617 and RC-616) or are their other solutions out there? I want to create a second zone for my LR and deck and be able to adjust volume remotely. I'm planning on using the receiver in 5.1 and use the extra 2 channels to drive my second zone. Any pointers would be appreciated.

Thx - J

Nicholas Mosher

06-09-2005, 11:26 AM

I ordered three pairs of the SP-30 units. The box they came in weighed over 70lbs. They are definetly high-quality units. The matt-black finish also matches that of the Ascends quite nicely. Brass carpet spikes are a nice touch. Their only minus would be the speaker clips. To be honest they suck. I use two black wire ties for each stand, one at the top plate and one at the baseplate.

Good luck with DVE, remember that the bass frequencies are screwed up, so apply the correct fudge-factors.

johnnylongwood

06-10-2005, 07:12 AM

Sorry to hear the clips are crap. That's disappointing.

Any good resources/rules of thumb for correctly adjusting the bass freq's (fudge-factors)? At some point I'll probably get a BFD, but that's probably a ways off.

Thanks for all your help.

J

Nicholas Mosher

06-10-2005, 09:20 AM

The speaker clips attach to the stand with a sticky-back adhesive. They fell off within a couple weeks. Two black wire ties do a much better job. You can't see the top one because it's right under the top plate, and the bottom one blends in good.

I use AVIA, but you can probably find the fudge factors for DVE if you look around on the net. I hope you snagged a Radio Shack SPL meter.

Good Luck with the new setup! ;)

johnnylongwood

06-14-2005, 01:31 PM

well my 3805 arrived yesterday and wouldn't you know it the remote doesn't work!?!?!? thankfully i was warned about problems with the remote from various forums such as this one. i knew there were going to be problems when i picked it up. i could hear something rattling around inside. the batteries provided were dead, i just so happened to have some extra AAA's around the house. I got the remote working somewhat, but i can not select certain sources with the remote like CD or DVD. I called Denon and I have to send them the remote before they will send out a replacement. Bummer.

As my Ascends haven't arrived yet, I hooked the 3805 up to my existing 2 channel system to do an A/B comparison. My initial impressions were that the Denon is brighter and more forward than my existing amp. This is not a criticism, the receiver sounds good, but different. My tube amp is a bit more laid back (as one would expect) and darker. Personally I prefer the tube sound, but the Denon did not disappoint. Not sure if the Denon needs some time to burn in?

Jolida 502A Tube Integrated Amp (w/ extensive modification)
Svetlana KT88's (Power) and Mullard NOS (Pre) - Tubes
California Audio Labs ICON MK II Powerboss Edition - CD Player
Mission 774 Speakers
Harmonic Tech Pro AC 11 power cords (amp and cd player)
Harmonic Tech Pro Silway MK II interconnects
Kimber Kable 8TC shotguns bi-wired - speaker cable

Hopefully the Ascend boxes are waiting at home for me this evening. I've been anxiously awaiting their arrival.

Does anyone have any experience with using the Multi-Zone features on the Denon receivers? I'm interested in setting up my living room and deck as Zone 2 and using the amps from the back 2 channels to run the speakers. I would like to be able to select the source and control the volume from both the LR and the Deck. Do I have to buy the Denon RC-616 and RC-617 (IR Relays) in order to do so? Do other companies make something compatible? Any tips or suggestions would be appreciated.

shane55

06-14-2005, 10:13 PM

Congrats johnnylongwood!I just sent you a PM regarding the 3805 and tricks re. setup.

cheers

shane

Zyzzyva100

06-15-2005, 08:24 AM

Congrats johnnylongwood!I just sent you a PM regarding the 3805 and tricks re. setup.

cheers

shane

Hey, if I could possibly see those 3805 setup tricks etc, I would appreciate it. I have one on the way, and will be ordering my ascends soon.

I got a great deal on mine used, although the remote supposedly only works intermittanly, so I ordered a logitech harmony 659 to control all my stuff.

shane55

06-15-2005, 11:16 AM

No expert here, but have had it for a while and have finally gotten the Ascend / SVS setup to sound damn good. It's a great receiver, but has some quirks... (the biggest being the fracking remote).

We can keep this offline as well. So when you get the 3805, just drop me a line.. :D
shane

Zyzzyva100

06-15-2005, 01:09 PM

Well at this point I may not even end up with the 3805. The guy selling it on avs first listed it at one price, and I said I'd take it. 5 messages back and forth later he said that he would check with the bank to figure out a secure payment method. Right after that he raised the ad price a hundred bucks and never even told me. Then I confront him about it and he says that he never even agreed to a sale and to back off.

I liked his original price, but this is getting shady. Especially since he kept saying how he wanted to make sure I couldn't somehow stop payment (makes me think he would never actually send anything). Now this, and the fact that hes being an ass, makes me think that I need to find a different reciever.

I was planning to spend around $600, so now its either back to the HK 435, or try to find something used on audiogon (there is another 3805 for $675), but I would still have to get the mic to do the eq.

shane55

06-15-2005, 01:39 PM

Well... personally, I think the Auto-EQ/mic is a bit overrated and not a necessity. Don't get me wrong, I think it makes for a good starting point, but in order to do things right you've got to plot the FR and make manual adjustments. Your ears are the final judge.

Have you checked the authorized B-Stock (refurb.) sites linked on the Denon site? You may be able to get a very good price for a virtually new unit there.

Sorry to hear you've been jerked about. :(

Cheers

Zyzzyva100

06-15-2005, 02:01 PM

yea, I checked for b-stock. best I could find for my price range was a 2805, and even then the warranty is only 90 days. I would actually feel more comfortable with a used unit. At least I know it has worked for awhile without problem.

Any other quirks with this unit besides the remote (got that covered with harmony). I still really want to find one, hopefully on audiogon.

shane55

06-15-2005, 02:37 PM

Any other quirks with this unit besides the remote (got that covered with harmony). I still really want to find one, hopefully on audiogon.

Quirks... a few, but work-arounds. One of the most annoying, but understandable is that in Direct or Pure Direct Modes, there is no Bass mgmt. The speakers will be set to large and there is no x-over applied. It's pure 2-ch. stereo (if that's your input). It's great for some things... it really lets you hear the what the DAC's can do converting your digital PCM signal (from optical or coax). But, don't try to tune-in your sub or speakers in this mode. Actually... in this mode, you shouldn't have your sub on at all. :)

shane

Lou-the-dog

06-15-2005, 05:39 PM

Quirks... a few, but work-arounds. One of the most annoying, but understandable is that in Direct or Pure Direct Modes, there is no Bass mgmt. The speakers will be set to large and there is no x-over applied.
shane

Wow! That is different than it's predecessor the 3803. Direct modes still have bass management like stereo mode... I think. I wonder what Denon's logic was in changing that in the 3805? If I can find my manual I'll check for sure.

Randy

johnnylongwood

06-16-2005, 06:58 AM

finally got the ascends hooked up for the first time last night. i'll admit that i was skeptical about buying speakers without ever having heard them. needless to say i am extremely pleased. even my wife commented that they sound really good. if i didn't know better, i'd guess they cost twice the price.

i set the speakers up in the built in bookshelves in our living room with the tweeters at ear height when seated. the imaging was excellent. i found the speakers sound best with when pulled forward away from the wall approximately 4-5". given the construction of our built in's, that's about as far forward as i can pull the speakers. much better dynamics than when pushed all the way back against the wall. Any comments or suggestions on speaker placement in actual bookshelves would be appreciated.

listened Bill Evans Trio Live at the Village Vanguard and then Grateful Dead Dick's Picks vol. 25. The speakers were very neutral and accurate, picking up the subtle nuances. The detail was fantastic and with the Denon 3805 receiver their was plenty of juice to drive them. My wife reminded me that our living room was not to be confused with a college dorm room and that our daughter was sleeping, so I'll have to wait to turn them up to "11" until tonight...

i would highly recommend these speakers, without hesitation, to anyone considering them. no doubt you can buy better speakers, but they'll cost you a lot more. i am extremely pleased and can't wait until the installer comes on Sat to wire up my den and deck.

shane55

06-16-2005, 11:06 AM

Congrats!
Let us know how you fare in dialing them in. What exactly did you get?

shane

johnnylongwood

06-16-2005, 11:40 AM

once everything has been installed, i will have the Denon 3805 powering the following:

Den:
5.1 channel HT consisting of 2 pair of Ascend CBM-170's, a CMT-340c and for the time being I'll be making use of an existing Klipsch KSW 12. I ordered the studio tech 30" SP stands for the front and the omnimount brackets for the surrounds. center channel is sitting atop my Panny 53" RPHDTV.

LR:
pair of CBM-170's

Deck:
pair of Niles OS25's

Everything should be wired up using Kimber Kable KWIK 12 (4 conductor) speaker cable and I ordered a couple sets of Blue Jeans component and audio cables to test out for my Cable Box and DVD player.

I have yet to order any of the Denon IR relays until I see what the installer has to say. If anyone has set up a Denon multi Zone system, I would love to know the details.

Should be a fun weekend getting everything up and running. Wish me luck!