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Borismaster
05-24-2005, 10:11 PM
Hey guys. In my current setup I have 340's across the front. I have a 6.1 yamaha rx-v630. I was looking for the best way to improve sound. I was wondering if there would be a noticable improvement by driving the 340's with 3 Outlaw M-blocks 200 watts each. My rx-v630 is a low end 75 watt/channel receiver. I would like to know if it would be worth it. Thanks.

Mag_Neato
05-25-2005, 06:01 AM
It's never a bad idea to add more power. The gains are more than simply increased SPL's. Music and movies will have more dynamics and the bass will be tighter, with better definition. Also, the entire frequency range should have a sense of effortlessness, without any straining in the sound.

I had added a Rotel 60watt/ch dual-mono amp to my old system after moving into my house. The increased room size coming from an apartment dictated more power. My NAD integrated amp, with 40w/ch, just did not have enough oomph anymore. I too was skeptical that only a 20w/ch increase would be enough. Let me tell you, my worries quickly disappeared as soon as I played music through it.

A dedicated amp will kill a similarly spec'd receiver.

bikeman
05-25-2005, 06:38 AM
It's never a bad idea to add more power. The gains are more than simply increased SPL's. Music and movies will have more dynamics and the bass will be tighter, with better definition. Also, the entire frequency range should have a sense of effortlessness, without any straining in the sound.

I had added a Rotel 60watt/ch dual-mono amp to my old system after moving into my house. The increased room size coming from an apartment dictated more power. My NAD integrated amp, with 40w/ch, just did not have enough oomph anymore. I too was skeptical that only a 20w/ch increase would be enough. Let me tell you, my worries quickly disappeared as soon as I played music through it.

A dedicated amp will kill a similarly spec'd receiver.

How do we know that the addtional wattage is being utilized at normal listening levels and what's the math for establishing the increased dynamics?
I don't dispute you hear a difference so don't take this in that vein. I'm just someone who dosen't hear the difference and am always curious how and where the differences comes from.

Thanks,
David

Nicholas Mosher
05-25-2005, 07:35 AM
When auditioning equipment I could easily hear the difference between Receivers and Seperates, but I couldn't really hear a difference between 120W and 200W.

Mag_Neato
05-25-2005, 07:45 AM
I understand the skepticism....I was too.

The gains I mentioned are the results I experienced in my system. The Rotel was a dual-mono design, using a seperate power supply for each channel. It was basically two mono amps built into one chassis, with the ability to bridge both channels into a single 180w mono amp. I ran it bridged for a short time powering a single Vandersteen 1b while the other speaker was shipped back to the factory for a new woofer replacement.

The difference from running it 60w in stereo and 180w mono was not subtle. Even at the same relative volume levels, the dynamics were greater and the bass was much more controlled and tight, with better definition.

It is not something you can quantify in words......hearing is believing.

Take advantage of Outlaw's 30 day trial!

bikeman
05-25-2005, 04:55 PM
It is not something you can quantify in words......hearing is believing.
Take advantage of Outlaw's 30 day trial!

I was looking for it quantified into numbers. That takes the psychology out of it.
I agree, "hearing is believing." It's just that believing dosen't make it so for others. I've been following this debate off and on for the past 35 years.
Two things changed my viewpoint. I worked as a para-legal investigator in the military for three years. We got the case once the MP's were through and prepared it for trial. One of the things that struck me was that what people believe they saw often wasn't what actually happened. They saw it with their own eyes so they believe firmly that that's what happened. But they would often be contridicted by other eye witnesses and other evidence.
Then, several years ago, I took an upper level psychology course that had a good deal of perceptual psychology included. It taught me that what I had experienced in the military was common, not just for sight but for all our senses. This field is really active right now. Makes for very interesting reading but with an entirely different approach than what we talk about here.
Again, I don't dispute that there are differences and that you perceive those differences. For me, differences are very individualistic and don't always translate well from one listener or observer to the next.
I've heard lots of decent quality amps in my life. They pretty much all sound similar now. Not identical but similar enough not to get too caught up in it. I've heard greater differences in the same equipment on different days than I've heard differneces in different amps. Those are some of my filters colored by my experiences.

David

Eddie Horton
05-25-2005, 05:48 PM
I've got 3 M-200's powering my 340 mains and center. My Yamaha HTR-5790 is doing processing duty and powering the surrounds. At normal volume levels, I can't tell a bit of difference in the Outlaw's and my mid-fi receiver. At volumes approaching Dolby reference levels, however, the Yamaha can't keep up and I can tell a difference with the Outlaw's handling the front 3. My Yamaha is rated for 110 x 7, but in real life that just ain't so. The Ascends can take some power, and it doesn't take long to suck the life out of a receiver at high volumes.

bikeman
05-27-2005, 01:19 PM
Not audio related but here are two articles on how our senses appear to be filtered.

http://web.mit.edu/persci/people/adelson/checkershadow_illusion.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/18/health/webmd/main696215_page2.shtml


David

Eddie
06-01-2005, 10:09 PM
Hey guys. In my current setup I have 340's across the front. I have a 6.1 yamaha rx-v630. I was looking for the best way to improve sound. I was wondering if there would be a noticable improvement by driving the 340's with 3 Outlaw M-blocks 200 watts each. My rx-v630 is a low end 75 watt/channel receiver. I would like to know if it would be worth it. Thanks.

I'd say get 2 of the M-blocks for your L/R speakers (assuming you listen to 2-channel music a lot too) and a vintage stereo pre-pro on eBay or audiogon for the price of the 3rd monoblock...I found that using the amp only doesn't make nearly as much of an improvement (see "340s + NAD separates" thread).

The Yammie should be able to handle the center and surrounds just fine, unless you TRULY like to crank your HT super-loud.

NewBuyer
06-01-2005, 11:20 PM
bikeman, you make some very good points, and those articles you linked are extremely relevant IMO...

I too am curious about how exactly we can measure that the extra unused watts (at normal listening levels) are actually contributing anything at all, and more importantly, exactly why this would be so. Can anybody explain it meaningfully, without just offering a subjective listening opinion?