SUBWOOFER Questions out the wazoo!

[Eddie]

1. Are most subs either better for music or for HT, rather than being equally good for both?

2. What qualities/specs/features would you look for in a music-oriented sub?

3. What qualities/specs/features would you look for in a HT-oriented sub?

4. I get the impression there is some sort of rivalry between SVS and Hsu on many audio forums, and that the SVS is said to be better for HT and the Hsu better for music. Agree/disagree?

5. Comparing specific models and pricepoints, it does appear that SVS offers subs that are bigger, heavier, more powerful, and go lower than Hsu within the same pricepoint. For example, the SVS PB-10 ($429, 20Hz, 60lbs, 300w) seems like a much better value than the Hsu STF-2 ($400, 25Hz, 44lbs, 200w) esp. if one accepts the conventional wisdom of weight being an indicator of quality in most things electronic. Or am I missing something here?

6. For a 80% music (jazz, classical, vocals) and 20% HT user like myself, just how good of a sub do I really need? My HT is 80% low-LFE stuff anyway such as "Sideways," "I Heart Huckabees," "Eternal Sunshine..." dramas/cult/foreign films, for which I often won't even bother plugging in the surround speakers (long WAF-related story on that which I won't go into, LOL).

7. Given #6, also factor in that my listening space is fairly cavernous (700 sq. feet) with 18 foot vaulted ceilings and the sub cannot be placed in any corner. So would the PB-10 or STF-2 suffice, or should I increase my budget?

8. Are there any other subs you'd recommend in this price range, given #6 and 7? I'm currently running Ascend 340s across the front, on a Marantz 5400, with an atrocious JBL e150 sub.

[ClutchBrake]

In a room that size I'd go for a bigger sub. Then again, I'd rather have more than I need. I can always dial it back.

As for SVS vs. Hsu. Eh. I've heard both. They are both a good value for the money.

The first thing I would do would be to choose the output you need. Next decide if you want a tube or box sub. Then look at what both Hsu and SVS offer and choose the one you find most aesthetically pleasing. As long as you properly calibrate the sub you choose you'll be pleased.

For my home theater I have an SVS 20-39 PCi. I have 340s for my L/C/R/Surrounds. Eventually I want to replace this with an infinite baffle subwoofer. The SVS does magnificently in the room (14x20x8) and is incredibly flat since use a Behringer Feedback Destroyer for EQ. The IB is just something I want to do.

Once I redo my bedroom I'll be putting a small sound system there. A pair of 170s and a Hsu STF-1 is the plan.

[Quinn]

You need to look at box size too. Bump the Hsu STF-2 upto PB-10 size enclosure(4800 cu inch v 6330 cu in) and lengthen the port of it you'd get similar performance I'm guessing. Also as Mark Seaton explained to me a large magnet is a sign of poor driver design being "compensated" for. So you need to see if the weight difference is in the box and/or elsewhere. You hear of transient speed as in how fast a driver can start and stop, do two quick back to back bass notes came out as two separate notes or one long one?

Watts- If all else stays the same it takes doubling the watts for every 3dB increase in volume. You put that 300 watt amp on the Hsu you'd get a barely perceptable volume increase of 1.5 dB. Design is much more important than watts for how loud a sub can get.

I'd wait 2-3 months until the new Hsu and Rocket subs come out and see what happens to the market before buying. Also see what hits the used market then.

I'm finding my personal preference for a "music first" sub is a sealed sub. My STF-2 when it was in the living room would rattle the windows but not shake the couch and get down to 21-22hz before rolling off. You've seen how open that space is to the rest of the house. For what you are saying about your listening habits. I'd lean toward the Rocket ULW-10(or UFW-10 used) and the Acoustic-Visions MRS10 in that price range. Both are sealed subs.

[Eddie]

Clutch,

So what's the advantage of a tube sub over a box sub? I had the impression that people usually run the tubes in pairs, is this true?

Hmm, I wonder if the Behringer Feedback Destroyer could salvage my lousy JBL sub...

[Eddie]

Quinn,

Yeah I definitely noticed the box size difference right away. Who is Mark Seaton? I was always told that heavier speakers = bigger magnets = better quality. On the other hand I know that Cerwin Vegas certainly weigh more than Ascends, and I'm sure the Ascends would toast them in a millisecond.

What new Hsu and Rocket subs are supposed to come out in 2-3 months, and how might that change the marketplace? Has there been some big innovation in subwoofer design?

So what is it about a sealed sub that makes it better for music listening? I have a sealed Infinity sub in my car, can't quite remember why I chose that design unfortunately. :D Does it favor accuracy and speed over SPL and lowness? I guess I don't really get your comment about how your STF-2 would "rattle the windows but not shake the couch"...is that a good thing or bad?

I'll look into the Rocket and Acoustic Visions subs too, thanks.

[Eddie]

BTW, what do you all think about the Outlaw LFM-1 sub? Someone on another forum recommended that to me; the website and reviews look good too.

[curtis]

The advantage a tube has over a box is its structural rigidity. It take less material and work to make a tube more rigid/less resonant than a box.

As for running tubes in pairs, I don't think that is true. It could be the fact that they take up less floor space, so people may be more inclined to have more than one.

[Eddie]

Curtis,

so are you saying that a tube probably provides tighter, more accurate bass tha a box? That's an interesting angle...would seem to be more appealing to a music-oriented listener like me.

[curtis]

No...I am not saying that.

I am saying it is easier to make the tube more rigid. A well engineered tube and a well engineered box, all things being equal, should sound the same.

That said, the Hsu TN1220 is probably the best sub I have heard....and it is a tube, and I have heard some box subs that sound better than some tube subs.

[Eddie]

Hmm, for some reason the Hsu website isn't showing their tube subs any more... :confused:

[curtis]

Oh....it has been reported that the 1220 is no longer in production, but will be revived in the fall.

[jimsiff]

Who is Mark Seaton?

Mark is a speaker designer and regular on AVS. He has some subs coming to market later this year. Go to the AVS Subwoofer forum and you'll find him there.


I was always told that heavier speakers = bigger magnets = better quality.

A bigger, heavier magnet doesn't necessarily correlate to a better speaker. The strength of the magnet is more important than size, as is the relationship between cone mass and magnet strength. I'm no speaker design expert, but there are a lot of factors that go into a quality driver.


What new Hsu and Rocket subs are supposed to come out in 2-3 months, and how might that change the marketplace? Has there been some big innovation in subwoofer design?

Hsu is coming out with a new series of VTF box subs, the VTF2-HO and the VTF3-HO. One VTF3-HO is supposed to have the same output as two TN tube subs. There will also be an upgrade for the VTF Mk II series that significantly boosts output. Rocket should be releasing a new 12" sub in the next couple months. It's been anticipated for awhile now.

[Quinn]

Okay I wrongly attributed the magnet weight to Mark Seaton when it should have been Brian Bunge of Rutledge Audio Design. Also upon reviewing what he said it was that heavy magnets are inefficient and need tons of power not that it was poor driver design being compensated for.

[ClutchBrake]

Clutch,

So what's the advantage of a tube sub over a box sub? I had the impression that people usually run the tubes in pairs, is this true?

Hmm, I wonder if the Behringer Feedback Destroyer could salvage my lousy JBL sub...

As Curtis said, no reason to run a pair of tubes. Unless you want to, of course.

The BFD is used to flatten the in-room frequency response of your sub.

[Nicholas Mosher]

Tube subs are generally less expensive than similar performing box subs because they require less materials and labor to produce. They also take up less floor space if you have a smallish room, and cost less to ship due to the reduced weight.

As Curtis said, no reason to run a pair of tubes.
Running subs in pairs reduces distortion when you're pushing them, increases headroom by up to 6dB, excites room responses more evenly, and helps to cut down on their directionality (from what I've been told atleast). This applies to both boxes and tubes.

I haven't heard the HSU subs in my room, but HSU owners tend to say their subs are more "musical" than the SVS offerings. Likewise SVS owners tend to discredit this and add their subs hit deeper with more authority. I've yet to see an honest independant review with spectral decays, and FR plots in the same room under the same testing conditions with the same tester. In otherwords I think most owners from both camps are full of wunderbar bologna.

I purchased and returned an SVS PB10-ISD, and now run an SVS 16-46+ that I will be upgrading to a pair sometime over the next week (hopefully). The best advice I can give is that whichever sub you purchase, get the BFD Parametric EQ, and an SPL meter. I would take a properly setup PB10-ISD or STF-2 over a poorly calibrated PB12-ISD/V or VTF3-MKII anyday of the week. An unequalized sub that is not setup properly is the largest cause of "boomy" bass (IMHO). I've listened to a bunch of subs at Hi-Fi shops, and the only subs that sounded "clean" to me had built in EQs such as the Thiel and higher-end Velodyne units.

I had trouble with my sub bottoming out using the "port-plugging" baloney. While your mileage may vary, I wouldn't put too much stock in that technology. If you push your subs (and you will in that sized room), get a sub that is tuned for the depth of response you want. If you want to go deep, get a 1646 unit from SVS or wait for the HSU tubes to come back in the fall.

Anyhoo, good luck. ;)

[curtis]

My take on all this sub bologna..... :D

Just like with speakers, to understand and appreciate the differences, you need to listen to them, and preferably in the same environment at your listening levels.

Once you do, you will be able to throw out the bad bologna.

[Nicholas Mosher]

Measurements are definetly important, as opinions vary widely as to what sounds "clean", "deep" and "loud". Unfortunately most companies don't release measurements like Dave does with his speakers.

[curtis]

Yes...measurements are important.

But did you know that nobody has equated measurements to sound quality for subwoofers like Floyd Toole has done with speakers?

I'm not saying it is the same thing, but it is interesting that it hasn't been done.