PDA

View Full Version : small subwoofers



dodgerblue
05-11-2005, 01:49 PM
I've been hearing good things about the Orb Super 8 subwoofer. but mainly from users and not through SoundStage, GoodSound and others. I'm looking for a small subwoofer that is musical, clean and can reach into the lowest registers of a grand piano. Not interested in movies. Earlier, I was looking into the Hsu products, but they seem large and I really want to cut down on space. Anyone heard these? Ethan (Orb rep) feels that the Super 8 is less 'boomy' than the Hsu STF-1, which I was considering. Also, any suggestions? Thanks, ahead of time.

curtis
05-11-2005, 02:08 PM
I have heard a STF-1 on more than one occasion. An excellent smaller sub....not sure how anyone can call it boomy unless it was not set-up right.

I have not heard the Orb Super 8.

BradJudy
05-11-2005, 02:30 PM
I agree with Curtis that Hsu subs have excellent sound. I have been very happy with my VTF-2 for the past couple of years.

If you don't need speaker level inputs, the Rocket ULW-10 would be another one to consider, although it's more expensive.

JohnnyCasaba
05-11-2005, 05:06 PM
Not sure if this is over your budget, but another small sealed sub to consider is the Acoustic Visions MRS-10. Some links below:

http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofers/pre_finished/mrs10.shtml

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/acoustic-visions-mrs-10-subwoofer-11-2004.html

picasso
05-12-2005, 07:08 AM
I own an Acoustic Visions MRS-10. You'd be hard pressed to find a better sub for the money and size. Good luck............

Mag_Neato
05-12-2005, 09:00 AM
You can pick up a UFW-10 from av123 as "B" stock for $425.

It is an excellent sub for music.

dodgerblue
05-12-2005, 10:08 AM
Thanks to all who replied! I will begin looking into all suggestions. Small size and great sound is a difficult combination, I know. I also would like to have the subwoofer have a low-level line input, so that may weed out my choices. For example, the STF-! only has speaker high-level inputs/outputs. I want to keep the amount of connections to a minimum. Will check in later.

curtis
05-12-2005, 10:22 AM
The STF-1 also has a line level input(sub-in).
http://store1.yimg.com/I/hsusubs_1843_712808

dodgerblue
05-12-2005, 10:50 PM
Thanks for the picture Curtis, I should've made it clear that I meant I was looking for line-level stereo inputs since my amp does not have a sub-out but does have a preamp out. With this prerequisite, it removes the STF-1, Orb Super 8 and ULW-10 and leaves the MRS-10 and UFW-10. Both have good reviews, but at 425.00 for b-stock, the Rocket seems like great value. I'll keep you posted with my final decision.

curtis
05-12-2005, 10:53 PM
ahhh....got it. Good luck!!

NewBuyer
05-13-2005, 12:14 AM
This might seem like a stupid question, but...

Couldn't you just use a good quality RCA Y-adapter, to sum the stereo pre-outs from the receiver into a single rca line-input for the sub???

dodgerblue
05-13-2005, 10:14 AM
Newmember: Is it that simple? And I won't lose sound quality by doing so? Then, my options just expanded again. Can someone else provide input on this? Thanks.

NewBuyer
05-13-2005, 02:30 PM
Actually I thought about it a bit more after making that post, and my only concern is that doing so would short the output signal lines of the pre-outs. With a line-out signal I don't know if this is really an issue, as it is with high-outs.

I too would like to hear from a more experienced member about this...

dodgerblue
05-16-2005, 04:21 PM
Newbuyer: I'd like to hear more on this too. I'm just surprised I haven't been told of this possible 'simple method'. I'v'e seen a few user manuals for subs, but they didn't describe using a 'y' connector leading into a sub input. Anyhow, if I stay with the B-stock Rocket, as mentioned above, I think I'll be in good shape. But I'll check in from time to time to see if anyone else responds. Thanks.

dodgerblue
05-18-2005, 09:22 AM
Just figured it out. The Rocket ULW-10 manual (downloaded pdf file) shows that you can use a splitter for L/R low level outputs on the amp and connect with the single sub input. But then why do many subwoofers spend the time/money to install L/R low level inputs on the sub and also have a single sub input? Seems redundant unless it is more optimal to forego the splitter. Oh well, this thread seems like it died a few days ago anyhow.

NewBuyer
05-18-2005, 03:40 PM
dodgerblue,

I think the reason many subwoofer manufacturers put line-level L/R inputs as well as a single sub input, is because those subs usually also have line-level L/R outputs as well. The outputs will only deliver the remaining signal after the low-pass filter of the subwoofer's crossover has done its thing.

Just a thought...

metalaaron
05-18-2005, 04:11 PM
Carver Knight Shadow sub is pretty small

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1120922882

dodgerblue
05-18-2005, 11:03 PM
Newbuyer: You obviously have more knowledge about audio matters than I do. Thanks for your input; I learned something new again.

Metalaaron: I will look into the Carver sub. Thanks. So far though, the Rockets seem tough to beat for quality (both sound and looks) and price.

dodgerblue
07-27-2005, 06:36 PM
Well, I did purchase a small sub about a month ago - the Rocket ULW-10 B-stock for 329.00. In summary, I think that for the price, build quality (furniture-grade), automatic equalization (SOS), and sound I couldn't go wrong. At first I wasn't impressed because I expected immediate and significant improvement. But then I realized that for most music, the Ascend 170s do a fine job. As I continued to audition the sub, I began to hear the lows I was missing. In some music it was a subtle change, in others stunning. Cannon shots on 1812 sounded like explosions rather than cymbal crashes. Kick drums were felt in the gut. Can I live without a sub? Yes. But know that I know what can be missing, I keep the sub on all the time. As for sound quality, I'm not qualified to judge, since I haven't heard other subs. The latest Audioholics review suggests that boom and resonance are noticeable, but that the SOS equalization cancelled them out substantially. All I know is that what I hear is clean and convincing and I love it.

Thanks to all who contributed input to my process.

Eddie
07-27-2005, 07:19 PM
Dodgerblue,

I'm curious, how big is your listening room?

Someone also recommended the UFW-10 to me a long time ago, my only hesitation was that I have a huge 6000 cubic foot listening space (vaulted ceiling LR that wraps around into breakfast, kitchen, hallway & stairwell) and was worried about how such a small sealed sub like that would function compared to one of the behemoth SVS or Hsu ported models.

Like you I am also more of a music listener than HT person.

dodgerblue
07-27-2005, 10:32 PM
Hi Eddie: I also have a vaulted ceiling in my listening room and it is open-ended, so it connects to the den and eventually into the kitchen. The listening space (LR) is 15' x 15' and the walls are probably 8', then the vaulted ceiling; I wouldn't know how to calculate cubic feet with this configuration. As far as having adequate power, for my room with a 9:00 dial setting, I'm satisfied. If I try to crank it up to reference level (which is probably front fow center), I'll be having my neighbors on me, since I live in a townhome complex. I wish I could give you some advice on room size and sub selection. The UFW-10, which you refer to, has a ~500 watt (?) amp. The ULF-10 that I have has a 375 watt amp. I read somewhere that it is only a 2-3 db increase in SPL. I don't know what that means since I don't use a SPL meter. All my calibrations are done by ear. Good luck with your search. AV123 has a 30-day trial period and their customer service is A1 like Ascend.

Mag_Neato
07-28-2005, 06:41 AM
I recently added a UFW-10 to go with my 170's. My room is 13'x 18' with 8' ceiling with two non-closable doorways. I put the sub in the system without any calibration, meaning I set the gain to 12 o'clock, phase knob at "0", and the PEQ zeroed out(no EQ). It sounds very good just like it is, even a step better than the BFD'd PSB 12" ported sub it replaced! There may be some low end rumble missing, but I can't tell for sure.

For 6000 cubic feet, I'd go with either dual UFW's or a big Hsu or SVS.

dodgerblue
07-28-2005, 09:45 AM
Fellow audio purists: I have another elementary question. What is Phase and how does changing the value from 0 - 180 change the sound. It seems like it has something to do with angles and making the sub and speakers a cohesive unit. But I've never received a layman's definition of what is actually going on. Is the difference something that can be detected by ear or do you need a SPL meter to smooth things out. Thanks.

Oh, Eddie. What knid of speakers are you using. Seems like if you have Ascend 170s and are satisfied in that large room, my logic says that the UFW-10 may also satisfy your needs. This is merely based on the fact that the the sub and 170s are designed for small-medium sized rooms.

BradJudy
07-28-2005, 09:58 AM
Fellow audio purists: I have another elementary question. What is Phase and how does changing the value from 0 - 180 change the sound. It seems like it has something to do with angles and making the sub and speakers a cohesive unit. But I've never received a layman's definition of what is actually going on. Is the difference something that can be detected by ear or do you need a SPL meter to smooth things out. Thanks.


Phase adjustment on a subwoofer is used to make sure the sub and speakers are 'in sync' with each other and not fighting each other. On a more mathematical level, it has to do with the superposition of the sound waves and whether this creates constructive or destructive interference. You want the sub and speakers to be working together (constructive interference) to create an even frequency response (difference frequencies are the same loudness). If they are not working together, there will be a big dip in the loudness at the frequencies they overlap. It is possible to make this adjustment by ear (listen to test tone in the crossover/overlap range while someone else adjusts the phase until it sounds loudest). It also is very clear in measurements when the phase is wrong.

Here's a measurement with the phase set wrong - http://www.bradjudy.com/AV123/sub_and_mains_inroom_0phase.JPG

Here's one with the phase set correctly -
http://www.bradjudy.com/AV123/sub_and_mains_inroom.JPG

dodgerblue
07-28-2005, 02:16 PM
Thanks BradJudy for trying to explain the technical to someone who is not technical. I'm guessing now, so, if a sub and speakers are in sync, does that mean that the sound waves are reaching the listeners ears at the same time? If so, is there a delay working here? Excuse me, if I sound lame. I'm still unclear about the mechanics of what is actually happening when the sound waves are in-/out of sync. But I will try the test you suggest, when I get a CD of bass test tones. Thanks.

BradJudy
07-28-2005, 02:33 PM
Yes, the phase adjustment can also be thought of as a delay adjustment to get the sound waves reaching the listener at the same time. This is why a 'distance' setting for a subwoofer in your receiver can also be used to adjust phase - it is also a delay adjustment.

Eddie
07-28-2005, 08:32 PM
dodgerblue,

actually I have 340s across the front, and am very happy with them given my room's size. Just hate my crappy JBL e150 sub, though its positioning (in center of room with only about 2 feet of a wall anchoring behind it, and no other placement is possible at this time for WAF reasons so don't even ask).

I'm interested in the UFW/ULW subs because I keep hearing that sealed subs are better for music, but I want to make sure that such a small sub won't get swallowed up by all that space.

dodgerblue
07-28-2005, 11:07 PM
BradJudy: Ah ha! Now it makes sense. Thanks for hanging in there. Also, thanks for the initial suggestion of the ULW-10.

Eddie: I understand your concern and hope you find the right match. If you're not concerned about size perhaps the HSU and SVS makes may meet your needs. If you haven't already, the Goodsound review of the UFW-10 does make a comparison with the HSU. Good luck!

dodgerblue
08-23-2005, 10:33 PM
Epilogue. It's been a couple of months now since I received my Rocket ULW-10. And I discovered something significant that may affect other owners of two-channel receivers connecting to subs with only a single low level line input. My advice: don't connect a y-adapter cable at the L/R outputs on the receiver, as recommended in the owner's manual, but just use a single subwoofer cable and attach it either to the L or R channel then to the sub input. I'm embarassed to admit this, but I didn't initially hear the degradation in the sound associated with using the Y-adapter. By using the Y-adapter at my pre-outs on the receiver, the soundstage depth and width and the imaging was compromised. I discovered this by accident while listening to a CD with recordings designed to test your system. On tracks that were supposed to play music from only the L or R channels, both channels were active! And on a track that was supposed to simulate instruments moving L to R and back again, there was no movement detected! Then I tried to use my balance controls and found out that they were not working properly, that is, even by turing the the balance knob to either extreme, sound was coming from both channels! So, I experimented with the cables to see what was up and was able to correct the audio by using only the single subwoofer cable and eliminating the y-adapter. I called NAD and asked about this, and the technician told me that I was correct in connecting the sub the way that I did. He indicated that some subs with summed LFE inputs are not truly summed and this affects the amplifier and in some cases could cause permanent damage. I also read a thread on Audioholics about using or not using y-adapters which confirmed what my ears were hearing. I thought my system sounded more complete with the sub, but now, I'm even more pleased because the change was obvious. I thought I'd just throw this out there for owners of a two-channel receiver that are thnking about adding a sub. FYI my int amp is a NAD 370. Maybe with other two-channel systems, this may not be a problem.

bikeman
08-24-2005, 03:59 AM
Have you posted this over at the AV123 Forum?

David

dodgerblue
08-24-2005, 10:53 AM
bikeman: I'll post on AV123, as you suggest. Thanks.